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I don't agree with what Trump is doing, but NATO is clearly more of a liability for the US at this point than an asset, distracting us and diverting resources f

by _zagj 9mo ago

I don't agree with what Trump is doing, but NATO is clearly more of a liability for the US at this point than an asset, distracting us and diverting resources from our primary theater of geostrategic concern (Asia-Pacific), and Europeans are generally arrogant, ungrateful allies, who, if opinion polls are to be believed, had tepid attitudes towards us even when we had a pro-Europe president (Biden) in the White House who provided Ukraine with over a $100 billion in aid, almost of all of which was either arms or cash (as opposed to loans, which the EU preferred). If that aid couldn't buy much goodwill with our allies, then why are they our allies at all, especially considering that they lack both the means and the will to help us should we come into conflict with China?

arw0n 9mo ago
Since everyone here seems to love to argue in (naive) realist terms, here's some food for thought: Outside of values, China and Europe have very few conflicting geopolitical goals. Core interests don't clash outside of Europe's conflict with Russia, and some rather minor disagreements in Africa. A Eurasian block with a weak Russia and a stable but balkanized Middle East would be very beneficial to both China and the EU. Even India could be largely integrated into that. Even if the cost of NATO was higher than its immediate benefit, there is a very real risk of not only losing allies, but making new adversaries.
- _zagj 9mo ago
  Europe has already been exposed as a paper tiger. It won't divert funding from its social safety nets to re-arm, even in the face of Russian encroachment into their frontier, and it's too dependent on the American consumer market to go tit-for-tat on trade, and Europe's economy has been stagnant for a decade. Them aligning with China would give every impetuous for the US to align with Russia, on which one presidential candidate (Ramaswamy) already actively campaigned and various rightwing pundits, like Tucker Carlson, advocate (I don't). Also "Europe" will not unite against America; the US could easily win over Poland, Hungary, Turkey, and probably the UK (technically not Europe), and maybe more, if it so chose. Europe's hand is weak, and while the citizens may not realize it, the policymakers (judging by their actions) clearly do. Admittedly, I don't know how to sunset NATO smoothly, but it ought to be done.
  - Sammi 9mo ago
    Europe is bleeding out Russia in Ukraine while barely using much of their resources at all. Europe has revealed Russia as a paper tiger.

by _zagj 9mo ago

arw0n 9mo ago

Since everyone here seems to love to argue in (naive) realist terms, here's some food for thought: Outside of values, China and Europe have very few conflicting geopolitical goals. Core interests don't clash outside of Europe's conflict with Russia, and some rather minor disagreements in Africa. A Eurasian block with a weak Russia and a stable but balkanized Middle East would be very beneficial to both China and the EU. Even India could be largely integrated into that. Even if the cost of NATO was higher than its immediate benefit, there is a very real risk of not only losing allies, but making new adversaries.

_zagj 9mo ago
Europe has already been exposed as a paper tiger. It won't divert funding from its social safety nets to re-arm, even in the face of Russian encroachment into their frontier, and it's too dependent on the American consumer market to go tit-for-tat on trade, and Europe's economy has been stagnant for a decade. Them aligning with China would give every impetuous for the US to align with Russia, on which one presidential candidate (Ramaswamy) already actively campaigned and various rightwing pundits, like Tucker Carlson, advocate (I don't). Also "Europe" will not unite against America; the US could easily win over Poland, Hungary, Turkey, and probably the UK (technically not Europe), and maybe more, if it so chose. Europe's hand is weak, and while the citizens may not realize it, the policymakers (judging by their actions) clearly do. Admittedly, I don't know how to sunset NATO smoothly, but it ought to be done.
- Sammi 9mo ago
  Europe is bleeding out Russia in Ukraine while barely using much of their resources at all. Europe has revealed Russia as a paper tiger.