13 ms·

What it's like to be banned from the US for fighting online hate

79 points by HotGarbage 9mo ago

dyauspitr 9mo ago
Honestly, I saw all of this coming in 2009 when 4chan was making racism/misogyny engaging by making it humorous. I remember talking to a friend about how we would eventually get concentration camps that started with illegal immigrants and then expanded to any dissidents in the US.
- etchalon 9mo ago
  Once we decided nothing really mattered, nothing matters.
- ranger_danger 9mo ago
  Is it really humourous if you're not already racist/misogynist though?
  - Forgeties79 9mo ago
    I’d say people fall somewhere in between 0% and 100% bigoted and what they will tolerate/laugh at can be incredibly nuanced. Nobody is actually 0% or 100% racist but I generally consider myself “not bigoted” in a broad sense. Everyone is of course carrying some bigoted opinion(s) though, it’s unavoidable. But back to the point: I’d say I am by and large not particularly bigoted. Still, I’d be lying if I said I have never laughed at off-color jokes. No matter how progressive or anti-racist you are something is going to break through. That is what makes it such a powerful tool for less scrupulous actors. You find what a person or community is willing to tolerate, then you either peel off people in private or push boundaries out loud and slowly drive a wedge into the community.
  - malfist 9mo ago
    "I was just joking" is the excuse you tell yourself to say those hateful things and to escape consequences. Just look at Trump "joking" about canceling the election. It's a "joke" so there are no consequences, but where's the damn punch line?
    - jacquesm 9mo ago
      The punch line may well be that he wasn't joking after all.
      - munk-a 9mo ago
        He really needs better writers then - that punch line is lame enough to fail the bar for even late night shows.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9mo ago
      He does not joke. I don't think that he knows how.
  - cheschire 9mo ago
    There is a well known connection between humor and fear. One does not need to feel racist notions to feel fear about, and therefore laugh at racism.
  - dyauspitr 9mo ago
    Yes. I remember there was a whole phase of a meme of a black person in a suit with the tag “how I saw black people before 4chan” and some horribly racist after picture.
incomingpain 9mo ago
Some investigative journalists leaked internal documents showing that their intention was shutdown speech of their political opponents and apply EU law onto american citizens. I side with Matt Taibbi on this one. They arent innocent researchers being prosecuted by the evil baddies. I'll take my downvotes for having wrongthink.
- acdha 9mo ago
  Do you have any evidence to support those claims?
  - FuriouslyAdrift 9mo ago
    Probably related to these Congressional investigations from last year. https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/foreign-censorship-threat-how-european-unions-digital-services-act-compels https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/foreign-cen...
    - mdhb 9mo ago
      Ah yes, the famously fair and independent Republican Party. Terrific sourcing.
    - acdha 9mo ago
      Potentially, but it would be good to have them make a specific claim with evidence because otherwise we’re just guessing. Things like that report have some very opinionated conclusions which we might not otherwise want to spend time discussing.
miohtama 9mo ago
Problem with HateAid is that it doesn't focus on helping on hate crimes alone, but also combats hate speech, which is very widely interpreted. This sometimes have included criticism to politicians in power. Although its mission might be noble, the execution is sometimes murky. Of course if we get to the future where the government draws the line between the hate and the murky, the line will be drawn by White House for the US companies, not the EU. https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/germanys-hateaid-portrait-of-a-trusted-flagger/ https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/germany...
- verdeni 9mo ago
  As an example of this, I personally know several feminists who have been censored and even banned from major social media platforms for speaking up on women's rights. Their words were incorrectly flagged as "hate" and removed. I'm sure that these organizations do some good work in removing actual threatening content but often it's also used to censor views that their operatives find objectionable simply because it doesn't concord with their own beliefs.
  - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
    Who are these feminists? I don't want to not believe you but the lack of detail here feels like you're just dogwhistling feminist for transphobic
    - JCattheATM 9mo ago
      Yeah, that seems to be what it was. I pointed that out in another comment and it got falsely flagged.
    - NedF 9mo ago
      [dead]
  - JCattheATM 9mo ago
    > I personally know several feminists who have been censored and even banned from major social media platforms for speaking up on women's rights. Their words were incorrectly flagged as "hate" and removed. I mean, were they saying stuff against transwomen? If so, then it may not have been incorrectly flagged as hate.
dust42 9mo ago
Well, the EU was quick to copy this. The Swiss Jaques Baud was slapped with the same measures. I saw only one youtube video of him and in my memory he was well outspoken and considerate - but definitely not mainstream but also not a conspiracy nut. I simply think it is not right to basically destroy the life of someone without even a court judgement that he did something illegal. He definitely does not fall in the category of hate speech or trying to stir uproar. I think free speech is important for a living democracy. And that includes people with opposing views.
- ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
  This is the guy who has whole heartededly swallowed the Russian propaganda to the extent that its coming back out the other end (Either because hes a dangerous idiot or for money, you choose)? Thinks the British were responsible for the Bucha massacre? An ex-colonel spouting propaganda from Europes current greatest threat to peace feels like it deserves to get treated on a different level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Baud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Baud Also worth follow up reading on the swiss intelligence agencies, start with the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_intelligence_agencies#Strategic_Intelligence_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_intelligence_agencies#St... I think too many people forget that for the Swiss neutrality doesn't mean the same thing as it does for say the Irish, Swiss Neutrality is about exploiting both sides, and I hope to god someone important remembers that this time round.
  - fcpk 9mo ago
    this is just ridiculous anti free speech. just because he assumes a point of view that is mostly disagreed with doesn't make it a target for censoring. it's not a slippery slope, it's the straight path to 1984. dangerous idiots should be allowed to speak. and regarding money there is not a single hint he received any, and he lives in a country that is pretty well policed and not corrupt.
    - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
      As someone who considers the Ukrainians an ally, and therefore the Russians an enemy for starting a war of aggression, I'd say its safe to view someone using their position to espouse Russian propaganda an enemy agent, and Im begruded to think an ex-colonel with intelligence experience believes these easily debunkable theories because hes stupid. Europe is currently at war, some people just haven't realised it yet apparently. Im not even going to touch on the swiss further, for only the truly incorruptible would colloborate with Nazis.
lambdaphagy 9mo ago
> Rubio was promoting a conspiracy theory about what he has called the “censorship-industrial complex,” which alleges widespread collusion between the US government, tech companies, and civil society organizations to silence conservative voices Is that a conspiracy theory in the sense of “some crazy low-status nonsense that no one should pay attention to”, or a conspiracy theory in the sense of “a theory about a private arrangement between multiple actors”? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-white-house-pressured-facebook-to-censor-some-covid-19-content-during-the-pandemic https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-wh...
- gadders 9mo ago
  "Kill Musk's Twitter" was literally a Centre for Countering Digital Hate agenda item on a meeting with Senators in the US. The CCDH was started by advisors of Kier Starmer (one who is now his Chief of Staff). It is 100% a left wing pressure group. I don't see how anyone call it a conspiracy theory any more. https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/election-exclusive-british-advisors https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/election-excl...
  - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
    Just think its a geniunely important semantic note that only Americans and hard righters consider Labour + Kier left wing. If the CCDH is a pressure group, its a neo-liberal one.
    - iamnothere 9mo ago
      As an American, most Americans are unable to distinguish between “liberal” (American left, non-specific), Liberal (Lockean traditional capitalism), neoliberal, Communist, socialist, Social Democratic, “progressive”, and the Democratic Party. Come to think of it, I’m not sure I understand anymore, either. I really do feel like we’re entering a post-ideological tribal era. Ideological stances change minute to minute, mostly according to “who and whom.”
    - gadders 9mo ago
laughing_man 9mo ago
We don't want a legal government apparatus in place for determining what can be said on the internet. The first thing that will happen is the categories of things you can't say will slowly start to expand to include everything that threatens the power of the government. What happened during covid is bad enough. If your reaction to "hate speech" is to get the government to remove the speaker from the internet, what you're doing is more dangerous, in the long run, than the speech you don't like.
- _vqpz 9mo ago
  So what suggestion do you have for people who don't want to deal with hate speech on platforms if the platforms won't do anything because it cuts into their bottom line?
  - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
    I'd suggest they stop using the platforms. Probably the best decision I ever made, never looked back.
  - laughing_man 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - _vqpz 9mo ago
      Do you think there should be any kind of moderation for hate speech?
      - MrMember 9mo ago
        From the government? Absolutely not.
        _vqpz 9mo ago
        No, and I was not asking you
simianparrot 9mo ago
[flagged]
- ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
  Banning individuals from entering your state for their opinions doesn't feel particularly pro-free speech.
  - simianparrot 9mo ago
    These people (HateAid) deplatform and cancel others for their speech, via lawsuits, pressure, and other means. That's not speech.
    - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
      Thats still speech you just dont like it? HateAid have no legal authority, all they can do is utilise the already established channels to report content same as any other entity, but they do this in a more organised manner. Moreover, HateAid hasnt been sanctioned, individuals that work for or have worked with hateAid have been. Look, im not saying I agree with everything or anything HateAid does, to be honest I dont care, its irrevelant to the matter. Several individuals have had their freedom of expression curtailed, for right or wrong. The only point i take issue with is people pretending that that isnt what has happened. If you believe hateAid deplatform and cancel people, how can you not see the US removing individuals who supported hateaids's ability to access the country as the same thing? Don't allow yourself to be blinded just because you disagree with HateAid.
      - 9x39 9mo ago
        Not all norms and ideals are compatible globally. If a hypothetical group uses your ideals against you, do you remain bound by them out of consistency, or break from your rules to address the perceived threat?
        9mo ago
mise_en_place 9mo ago
[flagged]
suchoudh 9mo ago
all resistance is online .. people comment and think it to be enough.
cmxch 9mo ago
The EU finally finds out that “foreign interference” also includes them. Let’s hope Rubio cranks it up harder.
xtiansimon 9mo ago
Unrelated to the OP, but I ran across this IG repost where a social media post generated a visit from local police. Not because they’re threatening violence, but because they’re accusing a FL mayor of, I guess, being a dick. I was struck by this policing of free speech. So, not really a comment on this thread, but just timely and tangential. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTssjncDjbZ/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTssjncDjbZ/

79 points by HotGarbage 9mo ago

Honestly, I saw all of this coming in 2009 when 4chan was making racism/misogyny engaging by making it humorous. I remember talking to a friend about how we would eventually get concentration camps that started with illegal immigrants and then expanded to any dissidents in the US.

etchalon 9mo ago
Once we decided nothing really mattered, nothing matters.
ranger_danger 9mo ago
Is it really humourous if you're not already racist/misogynist though?
- Forgeties79 9mo ago
  I’d say people fall somewhere in between 0% and 100% bigoted and what they will tolerate/laugh at can be incredibly nuanced. Nobody is actually 0% or 100% racist but I generally consider myself “not bigoted” in a broad sense. Everyone is of course carrying some bigoted opinion(s) though, it’s unavoidable. But back to the point: I’d say I am by and large not particularly bigoted. Still, I’d be lying if I said I have never laughed at off-color jokes. No matter how progressive or anti-racist you are something is going to break through. That is what makes it such a powerful tool for less scrupulous actors. You find what a person or community is willing to tolerate, then you either peel off people in private or push boundaries out loud and slowly drive a wedge into the community.
- malfist 9mo ago
  "I was just joking" is the excuse you tell yourself to say those hateful things and to escape consequences. Just look at Trump "joking" about canceling the election. It's a "joke" so there are no consequences, but where's the damn punch line?
  - jacquesm 9mo ago
    The punch line may well be that he wasn't joking after all.
    - munk-a 9mo ago
      He really needs better writers then - that punch line is lame enough to fail the bar for even late night shows.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 9mo ago
    He does not joke. I don't think that he knows how.
- cheschire 9mo ago
  There is a well known connection between humor and fear. One does not need to feel racist notions to feel fear about, and therefore laugh at racism.
- dyauspitr 9mo ago
  Yes. I remember there was a whole phase of a meme of a black person in a suit with the tag “how I saw black people before 4chan” and some horribly racist after picture.

incomingpain 9mo ago

Some investigative journalists leaked internal documents showing that their intention was shutdown speech of their political opponents and apply EU law onto american citizens. I side with Matt Taibbi on this one. They arent innocent researchers being prosecuted by the evil baddies. I'll take my downvotes for having wrongthink.

acdha 9mo ago
Do you have any evidence to support those claims?
- FuriouslyAdrift 9mo ago
  Probably related to these Congressional investigations from last year. https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/foreign-censorship-threat-how-european-unions-digital-services-act-compels https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/foreign-cen...
  - mdhb 9mo ago
    Ah yes, the famously fair and independent Republican Party. Terrific sourcing.
  - acdha 9mo ago
    Potentially, but it would be good to have them make a specific claim with evidence because otherwise we’re just guessing. Things like that report have some very opinionated conclusions which we might not otherwise want to spend time discussing.

miohtama 9mo ago

Problem with HateAid is that it doesn't focus on helping on hate crimes alone, but also combats hate speech, which is very widely interpreted. This sometimes have included criticism to politicians in power. Although its mission might be noble, the execution is sometimes murky. Of course if we get to the future where the government draws the line between the hate and the murky, the line will be drawn by White House for the US companies, not the EU. https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/germanys-hateaid-portrait-of-a-trusted-flagger/ https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/germany...

verdeni 9mo ago
As an example of this, I personally know several feminists who have been censored and even banned from major social media platforms for speaking up on women's rights. Their words were incorrectly flagged as "hate" and removed. I'm sure that these organizations do some good work in removing actual threatening content but often it's also used to censor views that their operatives find objectionable simply because it doesn't concord with their own beliefs.
- ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
  Who are these feminists? I don't want to not believe you but the lack of detail here feels like you're just dogwhistling feminist for transphobic
  - JCattheATM 9mo ago
    Yeah, that seems to be what it was. I pointed that out in another comment and it got falsely flagged.
  - NedF 9mo ago
    [dead]
- JCattheATM 9mo ago
  > I personally know several feminists who have been censored and even banned from major social media platforms for speaking up on women's rights. Their words were incorrectly flagged as "hate" and removed. I mean, were they saying stuff against transwomen? If so, then it may not have been incorrectly flagged as hate.

dust42 9mo ago

Well, the EU was quick to copy this. The Swiss Jaques Baud was slapped with the same measures. I saw only one youtube video of him and in my memory he was well outspoken and considerate - but definitely not mainstream but also not a conspiracy nut. I simply think it is not right to basically destroy the life of someone without even a court judgement that he did something illegal. He definitely does not fall in the category of hate speech or trying to stir uproar. I think free speech is important for a living democracy. And that includes people with opposing views.

ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
This is the guy who has whole heartededly swallowed the Russian propaganda to the extent that its coming back out the other end (Either because hes a dangerous idiot or for money, you choose)? Thinks the British were responsible for the Bucha massacre? An ex-colonel spouting propaganda from Europes current greatest threat to peace feels like it deserves to get treated on a different level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Baud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Baud Also worth follow up reading on the swiss intelligence agencies, start with the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_intelligence_agencies#Strategic_Intelligence_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_intelligence_agencies#St... I think too many people forget that for the Swiss neutrality doesn't mean the same thing as it does for say the Irish, Swiss Neutrality is about exploiting both sides, and I hope to god someone important remembers that this time round.
- fcpk 9mo ago
  this is just ridiculous anti free speech. just because he assumes a point of view that is mostly disagreed with doesn't make it a target for censoring. it's not a slippery slope, it's the straight path to 1984. dangerous idiots should be allowed to speak. and regarding money there is not a single hint he received any, and he lives in a country that is pretty well policed and not corrupt.
  - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
    As someone who considers the Ukrainians an ally, and therefore the Russians an enemy for starting a war of aggression, I'd say its safe to view someone using their position to espouse Russian propaganda an enemy agent, and Im begruded to think an ex-colonel with intelligence experience believes these easily debunkable theories because hes stupid. Europe is currently at war, some people just haven't realised it yet apparently. Im not even going to touch on the swiss further, for only the truly incorruptible would colloborate with Nazis.

lambdaphagy 9mo ago

> Rubio was promoting a conspiracy theory about what he has called the “censorship-industrial complex,” which alleges widespread collusion between the US government, tech companies, and civil society organizations to silence conservative voices Is that a conspiracy theory in the sense of “some crazy low-status nonsense that no one should pay attention to”, or a conspiracy theory in the sense of “a theory about a private arrangement between multiple actors”? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-white-house-pressured-facebook-to-censor-some-covid-19-content-during-the-pandemic https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-wh...

gadders 9mo ago
"Kill Musk's Twitter" was literally a Centre for Countering Digital Hate agenda item on a meeting with Senators in the US. The CCDH was started by advisors of Kier Starmer (one who is now his Chief of Staff). It is 100% a left wing pressure group. I don't see how anyone call it a conspiracy theory any more. https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/election-exclusive-british-advisors https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/election-excl...
- ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
  Just think its a geniunely important semantic note that only Americans and hard righters consider Labour + Kier left wing. If the CCDH is a pressure group, its a neo-liberal one.
  - iamnothere 9mo ago
    As an American, most Americans are unable to distinguish between “liberal” (American left, non-specific), Liberal (Lockean traditional capitalism), neoliberal, Communist, socialist, Social Democratic, “progressive”, and the Democratic Party. Come to think of it, I’m not sure I understand anymore, either. I really do feel like we’re entering a post-ideological tribal era. Ideological stances change minute to minute, mostly according to “who and whom.”
  - gadders 9mo ago

laughing_man 9mo ago

We don't want a legal government apparatus in place for determining what can be said on the internet. The first thing that will happen is the categories of things you can't say will slowly start to expand to include everything that threatens the power of the government. What happened during covid is bad enough. If your reaction to "hate speech" is to get the government to remove the speaker from the internet, what you're doing is more dangerous, in the long run, than the speech you don't like.

_vqpz 9mo ago
So what suggestion do you have for people who don't want to deal with hate speech on platforms if the platforms won't do anything because it cuts into their bottom line?
- ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
  I'd suggest they stop using the platforms. Probably the best decision I ever made, never looked back.
- laughing_man 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - _vqpz 9mo ago
    Do you think there should be any kind of moderation for hate speech?
    - MrMember 9mo ago
      From the government? Absolutely not.
      - _vqpz 9mo ago
        No, and I was not asking you

simianparrot 9mo ago

[flagged]

ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
Banning individuals from entering your state for their opinions doesn't feel particularly pro-free speech.
- simianparrot 9mo ago
  These people (HateAid) deplatform and cancel others for their speech, via lawsuits, pressure, and other means. That's not speech.
  - ozlikethewizard 9mo ago
    Thats still speech you just dont like it? HateAid have no legal authority, all they can do is utilise the already established channels to report content same as any other entity, but they do this in a more organised manner. Moreover, HateAid hasnt been sanctioned, individuals that work for or have worked with hateAid have been. Look, im not saying I agree with everything or anything HateAid does, to be honest I dont care, its irrevelant to the matter. Several individuals have had their freedom of expression curtailed, for right or wrong. The only point i take issue with is people pretending that that isnt what has happened. If you believe hateAid deplatform and cancel people, how can you not see the US removing individuals who supported hateaids's ability to access the country as the same thing? Don't allow yourself to be blinded just because you disagree with HateAid.
    - 9x39 9mo ago
      Not all norms and ideals are compatible globally. If a hypothetical group uses your ideals against you, do you remain bound by them out of consistency, or break from your rules to address the perceived threat?
      - 9mo ago

mise_en_place 9mo ago

[flagged]

suchoudh 9mo ago

all resistance is online .. people comment and think it to be enough.

cmxch 9mo ago

The EU finally finds out that “foreign interference” also includes them. Let’s hope Rubio cranks it up harder.

xtiansimon 9mo ago

Unrelated to the OP, but I ran across this IG repost where a social media post generated a visit from local police. Not because they’re threatening violence, but because they’re accusing a FL mayor of, I guess, being a dick. I was struck by this policing of free speech. So, not really a comment on this thread, but just timely and tangential. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTssjncDjbZ/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTssjncDjbZ/