5 ms·

> A lot of Americans believed the guy they wanted to believe in, because they didn't want to believe the people they didn't want to believe in. It's sad but tr

> A lot of Americans believed the guy they wanted to believe in, because they didn't want to believe the people they didn't want to believe in. It's sad but true. Deep down, political thinking is influenced by tribal thinking, a rigid us versus them mentality. This is, after all, how the "divide and conquer" method gets to be so effective. A house divided amongst itself and all that.

CalChris 9mo ago
That’s a clever bothsiderism. However, these two tribes are not alike.
- MonkeyClub 9mo ago
  True, they're not alike, nor are the subtribes that are funneled into the two quasi-distinct groups. But I think the methods by which they're being manipulated are quite alike, and ultimately forced to side with the current tribal figurehead simply because it's not the other tribe's figurehead, even if there are many, and legitimate, contentions.
  - johnnyanmac 9mo ago
    >many, and legitimate, contentions. When one chess player chooses to suddenly say that a pawn can move 3 spaces, and you insist on calling a ref to call out cheating, I don't think it's just "two tribes" anymore. You agreed on the rules of engagment at the beginning of the match and one side is objectively breaking them. Saying post haste that "well maybe a pawn should move 3 spaces" does not negate what you agreed upon. That's why it's tiring to head the "but you're being manipulated" argument. Being manipulated by the very rules of your government is different from a bunch of war mongerers, billionaires, and corrupt politicians continually ignoring the rules and saying "no it's okay".
    - MonkeyClub 9mo ago
      It is different, but it serves to elucidate that the rules we're living under aren't set in stone, they're only there because we, unlike the "no it's okay" bunch, can't or don't want to shirk them. They operate under the "might is right" mentality, and by getting away with it prove in a sick and contorted way that the rules of social order aren't universal.
      - CalChris 9mo ago
        So you’re saying we should be more like them AND applying a bothsiderism. Maybe conservatives should just straighten up and fly right. In fact, what have they ever gotten right?
thrance 9mo ago
You're acting like Democrats are as deep in the cult of personality as Republicans are, yet outside of the most corporate liberal circles, Harris and Biden are heavily held in contempt by most of the Left.
- MonkeyClub 9mo ago
  I get what you mean, and agree that > Harris and Biden are heavily held in contempt by most of the Left. To be absolutely frank, I don't consider the Democrat party as "Left" in any (traditional?) sense at all, even though it may include Left and Left-leaning elements. (But then again I don't consider Starmer's Labour as Left either, and one could argue that Labour is more Left than the Democrats.)
  - nobody9999 9mo ago
    >To be absolutely frank, I don't consider the Democrat party as "Left" in any (traditional?) sense at all, even though it may include Left and Left-leaning elements. The Democratic (not "Democrat", a member of that party is a Democrat, but the party is the "Democratic" Party), and calling it the "Democrat" party has its roots in Republicans deliberately misnaming the party as one of many attempts to devalue and dismiss the Democratic Party. If that's your goal, then please continue. Otherwise, it's like calling an Englishman a Limey or a Pommie just because you've heard others do so. Otherwise, you're quite correct, in that the US Democratic Party is mostly a center-right party, with it's most progressive/left-wing elements being firmly center-left.
- CalChris 9mo ago
  No, Harris and Biden are not heavily held in contempt by most of the Left. I'm on the Left and voted for both of them. Indeed, as a Progressive, I was pleasantly surprised by Biden for his withdrawal from Afghanistan, student loan forgiveness, his canceling the Keystone Pipeline, etc.
  - immibis 9mo ago
    Being pleasantly surprised by things that should be the bare minimum is not a sign you hold him in high regard. How do you feel about his attacks on Gaza?

CalChris 9mo ago

That’s a clever bothsiderism. However, these two tribes are not alike.

MonkeyClub 9mo ago
True, they're not alike, nor are the subtribes that are funneled into the two quasi-distinct groups. But I think the methods by which they're being manipulated are quite alike, and ultimately forced to side with the current tribal figurehead simply because it's not the other tribe's figurehead, even if there are many, and legitimate, contentions.
- johnnyanmac 9mo ago
  >many, and legitimate, contentions. When one chess player chooses to suddenly say that a pawn can move 3 spaces, and you insist on calling a ref to call out cheating, I don't think it's just "two tribes" anymore. You agreed on the rules of engagment at the beginning of the match and one side is objectively breaking them. Saying post haste that "well maybe a pawn should move 3 spaces" does not negate what you agreed upon. That's why it's tiring to head the "but you're being manipulated" argument. Being manipulated by the very rules of your government is different from a bunch of war mongerers, billionaires, and corrupt politicians continually ignoring the rules and saying "no it's okay".
  - MonkeyClub 9mo ago
    It is different, but it serves to elucidate that the rules we're living under aren't set in stone, they're only there because we, unlike the "no it's okay" bunch, can't or don't want to shirk them. They operate under the "might is right" mentality, and by getting away with it prove in a sick and contorted way that the rules of social order aren't universal.
    - CalChris 9mo ago
      So you’re saying we should be more like them AND applying a bothsiderism. Maybe conservatives should just straighten up and fly right. In fact, what have they ever gotten right?

thrance 9mo ago

You're acting like Democrats are as deep in the cult of personality as Republicans are, yet outside of the most corporate liberal circles, Harris and Biden are heavily held in contempt by most of the Left.

MonkeyClub 9mo ago
I get what you mean, and agree that > Harris and Biden are heavily held in contempt by most of the Left. To be absolutely frank, I don't consider the Democrat party as "Left" in any (traditional?) sense at all, even though it may include Left and Left-leaning elements. (But then again I don't consider Starmer's Labour as Left either, and one could argue that Labour is more Left than the Democrats.)
- nobody9999 9mo ago
  >To be absolutely frank, I don't consider the Democrat party as "Left" in any (traditional?) sense at all, even though it may include Left and Left-leaning elements. The Democratic (not "Democrat", a member of that party is a Democrat, but the party is the "Democratic" Party), and calling it the "Democrat" party has its roots in Republicans deliberately misnaming the party as one of many attempts to devalue and dismiss the Democratic Party. If that's your goal, then please continue. Otherwise, it's like calling an Englishman a Limey or a Pommie just because you've heard others do so. Otherwise, you're quite correct, in that the US Democratic Party is mostly a center-right party, with it's most progressive/left-wing elements being firmly center-left.
CalChris 9mo ago
No, Harris and Biden are not heavily held in contempt by most of the Left. I'm on the Left and voted for both of them. Indeed, as a Progressive, I was pleasantly surprised by Biden for his withdrawal from Afghanistan, student loan forgiveness, his canceling the Keystone Pipeline, etc.
- immibis 9mo ago
  Being pleasantly surprised by things that should be the bare minimum is not a sign you hold him in high regard. How do you feel about his attacks on Gaza?