5 ms·

The most important context is this image[1] from the Guardia Civil. Using Google Maps, and using as context the tree, post and yellow connection box in the imag

by andy12_ 9mo ago

The most important context is this image[1] from the Guardia Civil. Using Google Maps, and using as context the tree, post and yellow connection box in the image, we can place its location at 180m before the accident in the tracks of the Iryo train. The image appears to show a track welding failure. This would match the reports of some passengers[2] that reported that the "train started shaking violently" before the accident. Photo at 38.00771000519087, -4.565435982666953 Accident at 38.009292813090475, -4.564960554581273 [1] https://img2.rtve.es/im/16899875/?w=900 https://img2.rtve.es/im/16899875/?w=900 [2] https://x.com/eleanorinthesky/status/2012961856520917401?s=20 https://x.com/eleanorinthesky/status/2012961856520917401?s=2...

bob1029 9mo ago
The first image looks like sabotage to me. Continuous welded rail sections are much longer than this gap.
- parliament32 9mo ago
  Looks like a pull-apart: bad weld, then cold weather caused contraction from both sides making a gap. Pretty massive for a pull-apart but not impossible.
- verytrivial 9mo ago
  If sabotage it will be plain as day to a trained eye. I await the report. That break could also be explained by the rail heading away in that photo snapping at that point because the train pushed it out, noting the rail has rotated 90 degrees clockwise -- something did that work, and it was probably the train going out and over. I'm not a rail tie expert (nor is anyone likely to be on HN) so I don't know if this is an unusual failure mode. But there was a line change point intersection immediately south of the crash. My money is there was a fault (accidental or deliberate) there, not at this snapping point.
- laurencerowe 9mo ago
  Wouldn't the gap simply be the result of loss of tension after the weld broke? Metal expands in the heat (about 1cm per degree C per km). Weather shows it got down to around 0C in Córdoba last night while the summer record is around 47C so one would expect a fairly large gap once tension is released.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - dvfjsdhgfv 9mo ago
    We will know once the report is public. In Poland, they explicitly left C14 to make sure everybody understands who did it.
    - spixy 9mo ago
      C4?
  - LargoLasskhyfv 9mo ago
    That's not the way stuff like this is built nowadays. Meaning the thermal expansion and shrinkage of rails is considered and accounted for(or should). Thus things like these are integrated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breather_switch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breather_switch
    - laurencerowe 9mo ago
      As I understand it breather switches are used rarely in high speed rail systems. The ride on Spanish high speed trains is very smooth. At 300km/h (5km per minute) you’d notice going over a breather switch. It’d be like taking Amtrak’s Acela. The gap looks about 50cm which is maybe 1.5km of contraction from installation tension.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 9mo ago
        I disagree. Though I've never ridden Acela, I did Intercity Express at 330kph. Since I've been rail fannig in my youth, I still look out for rail-related stuff. Even if it's 'only infrastructure'. Meaning I notice that stuff in pictures in reports about building/opening new HSR track. No matter where. Seems like they are mandatory. You just don't notice them, even when looking out of the window onto the other track, because it's all just a blur. Need to be on an overpass, and looking down onto where they are, for instance, or from the side, during construction or maintenance, watching how the machines operate, and wondering about what they are doing there. Because it's an interruption :-) Some better pictures: https://www.eisenbahn.gerhard-obermayr.com/produzenten/vae/schienenauszugsvorrichtung/ https://www.eisenbahn.gerhard-obermayr.com/produzenten/vae/s... https://slabtrackaustria.com/our-technology/red/ https://slabtrackaustria.com/our-technology/red/ https://www.voestalpine.com/railway-systems/en/products/rail-expansion-joint-with-movable-switch-rail/ https://www.voestalpine.com/railway-systems/en/products/rail... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Oelzetalbr%C3%BCcke-Schienenauszug.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Oelzetal... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/SchienenauszugMitLzb.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Schienen... https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/CurvedRail_UPDATE-1.jpg https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/CurvedRail... https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Sound-Transit-EJ-Copy.png https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Sound-Tran... https://www.hsrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/HSR_Track_Catenary_Spain_900x600.jpg https://www.hsrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/HSR_Track_...
- perihelions 9mo ago
  Just a few weeks ago, terrorists twice tried to sabotage rail lines in Poland, endangering a passenger train with hundreds of people. > "[Prime Minister Donald] Tusk said that a military-grade C4 explosive device had been detonated on 15 November at about 21:00 (20:00 GMT) near the village of Mika." > "The explosion, which happened as a freight train was passing, caused minor damage to a wagon floor. It was captured on CCTV." > "Tusk said the train driver had not even noticed the incident." > "A previous attempt to derail a train by placing a steel clamp on the rail had failed, he added." > "The second act of sabotage, on 17 November, involved a train carrying 475 passengers having to suddenly brake because of damaged railway infrastructure, said Tusk." https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gknv8nxlzo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gknv8nxlzo
  - thisislife2 9mo ago
    So, was it the Russians or the Ukrainians (as is the case with the Nordstream pipelines)?

by andy12_ 9mo ago

bob1029 9mo ago

The first image looks like sabotage to me. Continuous welded rail sections are much longer than this gap.

parliament32 9mo ago
Looks like a pull-apart: bad weld, then cold weather caused contraction from both sides making a gap. Pretty massive for a pull-apart but not impossible.
verytrivial 9mo ago
If sabotage it will be plain as day to a trained eye. I await the report. That break could also be explained by the rail heading away in that photo snapping at that point because the train pushed it out, noting the rail has rotated 90 degrees clockwise -- something did that work, and it was probably the train going out and over. I'm not a rail tie expert (nor is anyone likely to be on HN) so I don't know if this is an unusual failure mode. But there was a line change point intersection immediately south of the crash. My money is there was a fault (accidental or deliberate) there, not at this snapping point.
laurencerowe 9mo ago
Wouldn't the gap simply be the result of loss of tension after the weld broke? Metal expands in the heat (about 1cm per degree C per km). Weather shows it got down to around 0C in Córdoba last night while the summer record is around 47C so one would expect a fairly large gap once tension is released.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- dvfjsdhgfv 9mo ago
  We will know once the report is public. In Poland, they explicitly left C14 to make sure everybody understands who did it.
  - spixy 9mo ago
    C4?
- LargoLasskhyfv 9mo ago
  That's not the way stuff like this is built nowadays. Meaning the thermal expansion and shrinkage of rails is considered and accounted for(or should). Thus things like these are integrated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breather_switch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breather_switch
  - laurencerowe 9mo ago
    As I understand it breather switches are used rarely in high speed rail systems. The ride on Spanish high speed trains is very smooth. At 300km/h (5km per minute) you’d notice going over a breather switch. It’d be like taking Amtrak’s Acela. The gap looks about 50cm which is maybe 1.5km of contraction from installation tension.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 9mo ago
      I disagree. Though I've never ridden Acela, I did Intercity Express at 330kph. Since I've been rail fannig in my youth, I still look out for rail-related stuff. Even if it's 'only infrastructure'. Meaning I notice that stuff in pictures in reports about building/opening new HSR track. No matter where. Seems like they are mandatory. You just don't notice them, even when looking out of the window onto the other track, because it's all just a blur. Need to be on an overpass, and looking down onto where they are, for instance, or from the side, during construction or maintenance, watching how the machines operate, and wondering about what they are doing there. Because it's an interruption :-) Some better pictures: https://www.eisenbahn.gerhard-obermayr.com/produzenten/vae/schienenauszugsvorrichtung/ https://www.eisenbahn.gerhard-obermayr.com/produzenten/vae/s... https://slabtrackaustria.com/our-technology/red/ https://slabtrackaustria.com/our-technology/red/ https://www.voestalpine.com/railway-systems/en/products/rail-expansion-joint-with-movable-switch-rail/ https://www.voestalpine.com/railway-systems/en/products/rail... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Oelzetalbr%C3%BCcke-Schienenauszug.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Oelzetal... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/SchienenauszugMitLzb.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Schienen... https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/CurvedRail_UPDATE-1.jpg https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/CurvedRail... https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Sound-Transit-EJ-Copy.png https://cmi-promex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Sound-Tran... https://www.hsrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/HSR_Track_Catenary_Spain_900x600.jpg https://www.hsrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/HSR_Track_...
perihelions 9mo ago
Just a few weeks ago, terrorists twice tried to sabotage rail lines in Poland, endangering a passenger train with hundreds of people. > "[Prime Minister Donald] Tusk said that a military-grade C4 explosive device had been detonated on 15 November at about 21:00 (20:00 GMT) near the village of Mika." > "The explosion, which happened as a freight train was passing, caused minor damage to a wagon floor. It was captured on CCTV." > "Tusk said the train driver had not even noticed the incident." > "A previous attempt to derail a train by placing a steel clamp on the rail had failed, he added." > "The second act of sabotage, on 17 November, involved a train carrying 475 passengers having to suddenly brake because of damaged railway infrastructure, said Tusk." https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gknv8nxlzo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gknv8nxlzo
- thisislife2 9mo ago
  So, was it the Russians or the Ukrainians (as is the case with the Nordstream pipelines)?