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This looks like recycling fetishism. It's perfectly fine to burn such materials, if they were obtained from non-fossil sources to start with, so there would be

by pfdietz 10mo ago

This looks like recycling fetishism. It's perfectly fine to burn such materials, if they were obtained from non-fossil sources to start with, so there would be no net CO2 addition to the atmosphere.

westurner 10mo ago
An adjacent design validation question on a green chip factory and product design: Will Phytic acid in Lignin-Vitrimer encase burning CNT carbon nanotubes in a phosphorous char cage, this preventing health hazards and combustion? This says "phosphorous epoxy". FR4 silicon PCBs are N-doped and P-doped.
- westurner 10mo ago
  Will the phosphorous in said epoxy also encase CNTs if there is combustion? > The hypothesis in your text is chemically sound. The phosphorus [(polyphosphonates)] in the EMPA epoxy functions as an "intumescent" or char-promoting agent.
metalman 10mo ago
we are having an existential marine crisis due to the millions of tons of essentialy non recyclable "plastic" bieng dumped in our oceans, a fully recyclable alternative is worth trillions over the long haul. The switch will happen when a viable alternative is discovered, and a material that has inherent value will be a key requirement. If this new epoxy is a true engineered material that is suitable for say, vacume infusion molding of things like wind turbine blades,and smaller ships, and injection molding of buckets and computer chasis etc, etc , then it will become universal for those things.
- pfdietz 10mo ago
  > existential marine crisis I think you're being overly hysterical there. Plastics in the ocean are certainly not ideal, but "existential"?
  - metalman 10mo ago
    the known consequences of polluting the the entire base of the planets food web isn't existential? "scientists", politicians, beurocrats, lawyers, and the mega wealthy have kept moving the agread upon limits to environmental exploitation, with zero sign that they have any other intent, than to take more³ what you are missing is that no one will ask for permission, to fix that.
    - lazide 10mo ago
      We’ve literally been dumping nuclear and chemical waste in the oceans for 100 years now? It isn’t good, but it isn’t any different than usual either.
      - wiml 10mo ago
        The amount of plastic going into the ocean is increasing rapidly, especially in the last 15 years or so. It is different from (say) 50 years ago. Also you might have noticed that a lot of sea life is scarcer than it used to be.
    - pfdietz 10mo ago
      I had hoped the use of the word was based on some actual specific world-ending effect I didn't know about, so I could learn something new and important. But apparently it's just untethered anxiety.
kennywinker 10mo ago
“The raw materials for epoxy resin production are today largely petroleum derived, although some plant derived sources are now becoming commercially available (e.g. plant derived glycerol used to make epichlorohydrin).” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy if they were obtained from non-fossil sources - but they weren’t, and the industry hasn’t switched and may never switch to plant based. Also, what you said isn’t necessarily true even with plant based resins. What is the carbon cost of producing new resin vs recycling old? There’s more to the impact of a material than the carbon stored inside it. Yes, we were all duped by the recycling industry. No that doesn’t make all attempts at recycling a lie.
- pfdietz 10mo ago
  > Also, what you said isn’t necessarily true even with plant based resins. What is the carbon cost of producing new resin vs recycling old? In the post-fossil fuel age, where is the net carbon supposed to be coming from? Unless we're using limestone, it's from the air, so there can't be net emission. In the not-yet post-fossil fuel age, what matters is displacing fossil fuels as quickly as possible, not the relatively very minor amount of carbon embodied in the renewable energy machinery.
  - kennywinker 10mo ago
    It seems to me you’re thinking of this in wayyy to much of a binary. It’s not pre-fossil fuel vs post fossil fuel - it’s how do we transition each thing we use fossil fuels for. Like if we end fossil fuels for energy, the cost of plastics will skyrocket. They maybe don’t contain enough carbon on their own to drive global warming, but we still need alternatives because otherwise that’s a many-billion dollar industry that is going to oppose stopping burning fossil fuels for energy.

by pfdietz 10mo ago

This looks like recycling fetishism. It's perfectly fine to burn such materials, if they were obtained from non-fossil sources to start with, so there would be no net CO2 addition to the atmosphere.

westurner 10mo ago

An adjacent design validation question on a green chip factory and product design: Will Phytic acid in Lignin-Vitrimer encase burning CNT carbon nanotubes in a phosphorous char cage, this preventing health hazards and combustion? This says "phosphorous epoxy". FR4 silicon PCBs are N-doped and P-doped.

westurner 10mo ago
Will the phosphorous in said epoxy also encase CNTs if there is combustion? > The hypothesis in your text is chemically sound. The phosphorus [(polyphosphonates)] in the EMPA epoxy functions as an "intumescent" or char-promoting agent.

metalman 10mo ago

we are having an existential marine crisis due to the millions of tons of essentialy non recyclable "plastic" bieng dumped in our oceans, a fully recyclable alternative is worth trillions over the long haul. The switch will happen when a viable alternative is discovered, and a material that has inherent value will be a key requirement. If this new epoxy is a true engineered material that is suitable for say, vacume infusion molding of things like wind turbine blades,and smaller ships, and injection molding of buckets and computer chasis etc, etc , then it will become universal for those things.

pfdietz 10mo ago
> existential marine crisis I think you're being overly hysterical there. Plastics in the ocean are certainly not ideal, but "existential"?
- metalman 10mo ago
  the known consequences of polluting the the entire base of the planets food web isn't existential? "scientists", politicians, beurocrats, lawyers, and the mega wealthy have kept moving the agread upon limits to environmental exploitation, with zero sign that they have any other intent, than to take more³ what you are missing is that no one will ask for permission, to fix that.
  - lazide 10mo ago
    We’ve literally been dumping nuclear and chemical waste in the oceans for 100 years now? It isn’t good, but it isn’t any different than usual either.
    - wiml 10mo ago
      The amount of plastic going into the ocean is increasing rapidly, especially in the last 15 years or so. It is different from (say) 50 years ago. Also you might have noticed that a lot of sea life is scarcer than it used to be.
  - pfdietz 10mo ago
    I had hoped the use of the word was based on some actual specific world-ending effect I didn't know about, so I could learn something new and important. But apparently it's just untethered anxiety.

kennywinker 10mo ago

“The raw materials for epoxy resin production are today largely petroleum derived, although some plant derived sources are now becoming commercially available (e.g. plant derived glycerol used to make epichlorohydrin).” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy if they were obtained from non-fossil sources - but they weren’t, and the industry hasn’t switched and may never switch to plant based. Also, what you said isn’t necessarily true even with plant based resins. What is the carbon cost of producing new resin vs recycling old? There’s more to the impact of a material than the carbon stored inside it. Yes, we were all duped by the recycling industry. No that doesn’t make all attempts at recycling a lie.

pfdietz 10mo ago
> Also, what you said isn’t necessarily true even with plant based resins. What is the carbon cost of producing new resin vs recycling old? In the post-fossil fuel age, where is the net carbon supposed to be coming from? Unless we're using limestone, it's from the air, so there can't be net emission. In the not-yet post-fossil fuel age, what matters is displacing fossil fuels as quickly as possible, not the relatively very minor amount of carbon embodied in the renewable energy machinery.
- kennywinker 10mo ago
  It seems to me you’re thinking of this in wayyy to much of a binary. It’s not pre-fossil fuel vs post fossil fuel - it’s how do we transition each thing we use fossil fuels for. Like if we end fossil fuels for energy, the cost of plastics will skyrocket. They maybe don’t contain enough carbon on their own to drive global warming, but we still need alternatives because otherwise that’s a many-billion dollar industry that is going to oppose stopping burning fossil fuels for energy.