4 ms·

Affordable EVs exist and are widely available in some countries. They're effectively banned in North America, though.

zdragnar 9mo ago
This has always been true of gas vehicles as well. They're banned for not having some safety feature or otherwise complying with FMVSS or some other regularity body, not because they are "affordable".
- snakeboy 9mo ago
  I think it's more likely that Chinese EVs are banned in the US because they would absolutely obliterate the domestic car manufacturing industry.
  - SR2Z 9mo ago
    To be fair, a big part of why is the magnitude of subsidies China has given its domestic EV suppliers.
    - bryanlarsen 9mo ago
      It's less than the $7500 per car the US gave until very recently.
      - SR2Z 9mo ago
        The US gave $7500 per car sold in the US to any manufacturer, with the "Buy American" restriction added only in the last two years of the policy. I'm also curious to hear your source for the subsidies - from what I can see China has spent anywhere from 3x to 5x propping up the domestic EV industry as the US has over the last 15 years. The US had Tesla which almost went bankrupt multiple times despite the subsidies; China has a dozen EV manufacturers, half of whom are on life support now that the government is withdrawing subsidies.
        bryanlarsen 9mo ago
        The Chinese spent more money on an absolute basis, yes. They gave less per car, but built > 10x as many cars, so your number of 3-5x sounds about right. The best source IMO is the commission that came up with the European countervailing duty of 17%.
        SR2Z 9mo ago
        I think that it is reasonable for the magnitude of Chinese subsidies to be cheaper per-car. Even ignoring any arguments about purchasing power and government aid, I would expect China to spend less per-car simply because the foundational technical problems in building a good consumer EV had already been addressed by the time they got started. I'm not trying to attack the impressiveness of the Chinese EV industry, because it's going to be an important part of the future. But saying that Chinese EVs are banned in the US purely because they are too good is incomplete. A big part of why they are banned, and why the US and China have such a frosty relationship, is because Chinese trade tactics are not fair to non-state-backed competitors.
        bryanlarsen 9mo ago
        Chinese EV development started in 2001. They started from a clean sheet. Your point about fairness is interesting because that's a position the US has given up on, especially since 2025. The European EV tariffs of 17/34 percent are fair-ish. The 100% American tariffs never were
- graemep 9mo ago
  That is insane. Smaller vehicles are safer at a social level because they do less damage when they hit something - especially a pedestrian. Regulatory bodies should be encouraging them for that reason alone (let alone all the others).
  - thatguy0900 9mo ago
    Think the cybertruck effectively shows that noone cares about the safety of those outside of the vehicle too much
    - graemep 9mo ago
      Manufacturers might prioritise the safety of their customers, and people are likely to care more about their own safety than that of others, but regulators should be looking at overall public safety which is definitely improved by encouraging small cars.
  - zdragnar 9mo ago
    The regulatory bodies aren't specifically discriminating against smaller vehicles, they're discriminating against vehicles that haven't proven safety to passengers in crash tests acceptable to the FMVSS. The vehicles may or may not also be missing mandatory internal safety features like airbags in all the right spots, etc. If Chinese EV manufacturers put their vehicles through these tests, include all the mandatory features, and strip out the forbidden telemetry (certain manufacturers are banned in the US for reporting to the CCP- most notably but not exclusive to Huawei) then they too can be sold here. If anything is preventing Chinese EVs from the US market, it's almost certainly their electronic components.
sgt 9mo ago
Have you seen the BYD Dolphins? Pretty nifty.
happyopossum 9mo ago
That’s hogwash - affordable EVs from one country are effectively banned, but we have affordable EVs. It’s just that nobody wants to buy them.
- cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
  This is likely confounded by the dealership model. Dealers have practically zero incentive to sell affordable cars, and especially not EVs that they’ll make almost no servicing money on. Some dealers also stock only a handful of EVs (or none) so they may not even have them to sell in the first place. It’d be nice if affordable EV models were available from direct to consumer companies. If one could go online and buy a $22k electric hatchback that shows up in your driveway with zero haggling, it’s difficult to imagine it not selling well.

This has always been true of gas vehicles as well. They're banned for not having some safety feature or otherwise complying with FMVSS or some other regularity body, not because they are "affordable".

snakeboy 9mo ago
I think it's more likely that Chinese EVs are banned in the US because they would absolutely obliterate the domestic car manufacturing industry.
- SR2Z 9mo ago
  To be fair, a big part of why is the magnitude of subsidies China has given its domestic EV suppliers.
  - bryanlarsen 9mo ago
    It's less than the $7500 per car the US gave until very recently.
    - SR2Z 9mo ago
      The US gave $7500 per car sold in the US to any manufacturer, with the "Buy American" restriction added only in the last two years of the policy. I'm also curious to hear your source for the subsidies - from what I can see China has spent anywhere from 3x to 5x propping up the domestic EV industry as the US has over the last 15 years. The US had Tesla which almost went bankrupt multiple times despite the subsidies; China has a dozen EV manufacturers, half of whom are on life support now that the government is withdrawing subsidies.
      - bryanlarsen 9mo ago
        The Chinese spent more money on an absolute basis, yes. They gave less per car, but built > 10x as many cars, so your number of 3-5x sounds about right. The best source IMO is the commission that came up with the European countervailing duty of 17%.
        SR2Z 9mo ago
        I think that it is reasonable for the magnitude of Chinese subsidies to be cheaper per-car. Even ignoring any arguments about purchasing power and government aid, I would expect China to spend less per-car simply because the foundational technical problems in building a good consumer EV had already been addressed by the time they got started. I'm not trying to attack the impressiveness of the Chinese EV industry, because it's going to be an important part of the future. But saying that Chinese EVs are banned in the US purely because they are too good is incomplete. A big part of why they are banned, and why the US and China have such a frosty relationship, is because Chinese trade tactics are not fair to non-state-backed competitors.
        bryanlarsen 9mo ago
        Chinese EV development started in 2001. They started from a clean sheet. Your point about fairness is interesting because that's a position the US has given up on, especially since 2025. The European EV tariffs of 17/34 percent are fair-ish. The 100% American tariffs never were
graemep 9mo ago
That is insane. Smaller vehicles are safer at a social level because they do less damage when they hit something - especially a pedestrian. Regulatory bodies should be encouraging them for that reason alone (let alone all the others).
- thatguy0900 9mo ago
  Think the cybertruck effectively shows that noone cares about the safety of those outside of the vehicle too much
  - graemep 9mo ago
    Manufacturers might prioritise the safety of their customers, and people are likely to care more about their own safety than that of others, but regulators should be looking at overall public safety which is definitely improved by encouraging small cars.
- zdragnar 9mo ago
  The regulatory bodies aren't specifically discriminating against smaller vehicles, they're discriminating against vehicles that haven't proven safety to passengers in crash tests acceptable to the FMVSS. The vehicles may or may not also be missing mandatory internal safety features like airbags in all the right spots, etc. If Chinese EV manufacturers put their vehicles through these tests, include all the mandatory features, and strip out the forbidden telemetry (certain manufacturers are banned in the US for reporting to the CCP- most notably but not exclusive to Huawei) then they too can be sold here. If anything is preventing Chinese EVs from the US market, it's almost certainly their electronic components.

sgt 9mo ago

Have you seen the BYD Dolphins? Pretty nifty.

happyopossum 9mo ago

That’s hogwash - affordable EVs from one country are effectively banned, but we have affordable EVs. It’s just that nobody wants to buy them.

cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
This is likely confounded by the dealership model. Dealers have practically zero incentive to sell affordable cars, and especially not EVs that they’ll make almost no servicing money on. Some dealers also stock only a handful of EVs (or none) so they may not even have them to sell in the first place. It’d be nice if affordable EV models were available from direct to consumer companies. If one could go online and buy a $22k electric hatchback that shows up in your driveway with zero haggling, it’s difficult to imagine it not selling well.