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It is true though, in some cases. The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations. So you do have to exercise good judgement in whi
by jeffbee 9mo ago
It is true though, in some cases. The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations. So you do have to exercise good judgement in which EV you choose. The category doesn't always win.
In my case I already own a hybrid that I only drive 2000 mi/yr and there is not yet an EV that I could buy with so little embodied carbon that it would make sense to do so. At the rate China is decarbonizing, presumably the embodied carbon of their EVs will soon be minimal, but not yet.
- thinkcontext 9mo ago> The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations Really? I could imagine it being significantly longer than an average EV, but never? Regardless of driving pattern? Got a link or can you show your math?
- jeffbee 9mo agohttps://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/4wuFZHyC16SDwjbJN7a6jp/3cebeda53487aa4f9f91c273fb4fe1c3/R1T_Dual-Motor_Carbon_Footprint_v1.0.pdf https://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/4wuFZHyC16SDwjbJN7a6j... According to the company itself, their bloated truck-like luxury object has double the emissions of a normal hybrid car.
- epistasis 9mo agoThanks for linking that Rivian document later, but I think it doesn't support this claim. I'll stick with it's weird 155,000 mile lifetime for the comparison. Rivian: 60,140 kg carbon per lifetime. F150, at 20mpg: 78,740 kg carbon, for fuel alone. So even ignoring the embodied carbon in an ICE vehicle, and paying comparatively high embodied CO2 cost of a new Rivian, it's better to switch immediately, (if CO2 were the sole concern, which it never is.)
- jeffbee 9mo agoAn F150 is also a poor choice, so I don't think of it as a point of comparison. As an approximation, the mass of any object is related to its embodied carbon, so smaller vehicles embody less of it. Massive vehicles embody current emissions and that is worth considering.
- epistasis 9mo agoThe Rivian is a truck, the F150 is by far the best selling truck, I don't think there could be a better comparison. What would you compare the Rivian to?
- jeffbee 9mo agoThat only works if you take it at face value that buying either of them is a rational transportation choice, which I reject. Even if I accept the people need a weird truck-shaped thing with a useless 4.5-foot bed, a far better choice on emissions grounds would be the Ford Maverick XL, which has a battery 1% as massive as the R1T's battery, yet this tiny battery cuts the per-mile GHG emissions in half. The embodied carbon payback distance of an R1T versus a Maverick XL is over 100,000 miles. My kid races mountain bikes so I have become extremely familiar with Rivian (and Cybertruck) MTB Dad, and I think they are a joke. With only a little planning I can get three bikes and three riders in a Honda Insight, while R1T Dad needs an optional accessory to get even one bike in the bed. People choosing these things are, 99% of the time, not behaving rationally. They are buying luxury goods that they believe signal their environmental credentials.
- epistasis 9mo agoI don't find either truck a rational choice, but the car market can stay irrational longer than the climate can stay liquid. The cultural irrationality of the truck/car market in the US crosses all ethnicities and class lines. If we are trying to evaluate the effectiveness of EVs, I think we need to compare the Rivian to the closest fossil fuel powered vehicle, even if it's something that causes me to disrespect the people making these choices.