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That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of

That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they are buying used anyway.

dangus 10mo ago
To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Yeah lithium mining is bad, but don’t forget that oil is also extracted and “mine.” And your gas car uses a LOT of it. I wouldn’t think too much about then average new car cost of $50k. That average is skewed by: 1. Expensive new car purchases (average != median) 2. Lower income people don’t buy new cars at all. Still, some of the best new car deals are EVs because dealers can’t get rid of them due to the sudden expiration of federal incentives. Plus the used ones depreciate like crazy despite having better maintenance and lower miles. The lease deals you might get on an Ioniq are insane, good luck getting a gas car lease with that kind of value. Let’s also not forget that the majority of housing units in the USA are single family homes where charging at home is likely to be an option.
- closewith 10mo ago
  The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years. > From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.
  - happyopossum 10mo ago
    Average car age is not related to how long an individual keeps said car…
    - jeffbee 10mo ago
      The average length of ownership is a pretty warped statistic, though. It is dependent on when in the car's life cycle someone buys it. At one end of the market are new car buyers who keep them longer than average, at the other end are people who constantly buy end-of-life junkers for $500.
- bluGill 10mo ago
  New cars are typically on a 3 year lease - a lot of people must be keeping cars for a long time to bring the average to 7
jeffbee 10mo ago
It is true though, in some cases. The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations. So you do have to exercise good judgement in which EV you choose. The category doesn't always win. In my case I already own a hybrid that I only drive 2000 mi/yr and there is not yet an EV that I could buy with so little embodied carbon that it would make sense to do so. At the rate China is decarbonizing, presumably the embodied carbon of their EVs will soon be minimal, but not yet.
- thinkcontext 10mo ago
  > The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations Really? I could imagine it being significantly longer than an average EV, but never? Regardless of driving pattern? Got a link or can you show your math?
  - jeffbee 10mo ago
    https://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/4wuFZHyC16SDwjbJN7a6jp/3cebeda53487aa4f9f91c273fb4fe1c3/R1T_Dual-Motor_Carbon_Footprint_v1.0.pdf https://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/4wuFZHyC16SDwjbJN7a6j... According to the company itself, their bloated truck-like luxury object has double the emissions of a normal hybrid car.
- epistasis 10mo ago
  Thanks for linking that Rivian document later, but I think it doesn't support this claim. I'll stick with it's weird 155,000 mile lifetime for the comparison. Rivian: 60,140 kg carbon per lifetime. F150, at 20mpg: 78,740 kg carbon, for fuel alone. So even ignoring the embodied carbon in an ICE vehicle, and paying comparatively high embodied CO2 cost of a new Rivian, it's better to switch immediately, (if CO2 were the sole concern, which it never is.)
  - jeffbee 10mo ago
    An F150 is also a poor choice, so I don't think of it as a point of comparison. As an approximation, the mass of any object is related to its embodied carbon, so smaller vehicles embody less of it. Massive vehicles embody current emissions and that is worth considering.

dangus 10mo ago

To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Yeah lithium mining is bad, but don’t forget that oil is also extracted and “mine.” And your gas car uses a LOT of it. I wouldn’t think too much about then average new car cost of $50k. That average is skewed by: 1. Expensive new car purchases (average != median) 2. Lower income people don’t buy new cars at all. Still, some of the best new car deals are EVs because dealers can’t get rid of them due to the sudden expiration of federal incentives. Plus the used ones depreciate like crazy despite having better maintenance and lower miles. The lease deals you might get on an Ioniq are insane, good luck getting a gas car lease with that kind of value. Let’s also not forget that the majority of housing units in the USA are single family homes where charging at home is likely to be an option.

closewith 10mo ago
The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years. > From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.
- happyopossum 10mo ago
  Average car age is not related to how long an individual keeps said car…
  - jeffbee 10mo ago
    The average length of ownership is a pretty warped statistic, though. It is dependent on when in the car's life cycle someone buys it. At one end of the market are new car buyers who keep them longer than average, at the other end are people who constantly buy end-of-life junkers for $500.
bluGill 10mo ago
New cars are typically on a 3 year lease - a lot of people must be keeping cars for a long time to bring the average to 7

jeffbee 10mo ago

It is true though, in some cases. The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations. So you do have to exercise good judgement in which EV you choose. The category doesn't always win. In my case I already own a hybrid that I only drive 2000 mi/yr and there is not yet an EV that I could buy with so little embodied carbon that it would make sense to do so. At the rate China is decarbonizing, presumably the embodied carbon of their EVs will soon be minimal, but not yet.

thinkcontext 10mo ago
> The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations Really? I could imagine it being significantly longer than an average EV, but never? Regardless of driving pattern? Got a link or can you show your math?
- jeffbee 10mo ago
  https://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/4wuFZHyC16SDwjbJN7a6jp/3cebeda53487aa4f9f91c273fb4fe1c3/R1T_Dual-Motor_Carbon_Footprint_v1.0.pdf https://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/4wuFZHyC16SDwjbJN7a6j... According to the company itself, their bloated truck-like luxury object has double the emissions of a normal hybrid car.
epistasis 10mo ago
Thanks for linking that Rivian document later, but I think it doesn't support this claim. I'll stick with it's weird 155,000 mile lifetime for the comparison. Rivian: 60,140 kg carbon per lifetime. F150, at 20mpg: 78,740 kg carbon, for fuel alone. So even ignoring the embodied carbon in an ICE vehicle, and paying comparatively high embodied CO2 cost of a new Rivian, it's better to switch immediately, (if CO2 were the sole concern, which it never is.)
- jeffbee 10mo ago
  An F150 is also a poor choice, so I don't think of it as a point of comparison. As an approximation, the mass of any object is related to its embodied carbon, so smaller vehicles embody less of it. Massive vehicles embody current emissions and that is worth considering.