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Tesla does their own with real world data. It’s a non-issue. Save the planet. Stop making excuses and get an EV.

Etheryte 9mo ago
While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.
- singinishi 9mo ago
  All the oil and gas is killing the planet. Even the gas fumes are killing you when you fill up. The sooner the better. There are lots of low cost EVs out there, especially when you factor in there’s no maintenance.
  - linsomniac 9mo ago
    The maintenance factor seems to often be overlooked. The amount of time I've put into EV maintenance in the last decade is about the same as I've put into my two ICE cars, but I drive them 1/10th as much. It's really, really nice, and I don't think dealer service departments are ready for a massive switch to EV.
  - neogodless 9mo ago
    Mostly agree but own an EV. "No" maintenance is an exaggeration and it's not necessary to make your point. My car's first set of tires were very bald at 25,000 miles. That's not unusual on new cars in general as they seem to come from the factory with low longevity tires, but it's still quite a short tire life. Yes anything in a gasoline engine is gone, and brakes get less use. But there are still maintenance items.
    - happyopossum 9mo ago
      When discussing vehicles it’s common to separate “wear” items and “maintenance” items. Brake pads and tires are “wear” items. Replacing your engine oil every 5-7000 miles is “maintenance”.
- epistasis 9mo ago
  That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they are buying used anyway.
  - dangus 9mo ago
    To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Yeah lithium mining is bad, but don’t forget that oil is also extracted and “mine.” And your gas car uses a LOT of it. I wouldn’t think too much about then average new car cost of $50k. That average is skewed by: 1. Expensive new car purchases (average != median) 2. Lower income people don’t buy new cars at all. Still, some of the best new car deals are EVs because dealers can’t get rid of them due to the sudden expiration of federal incentives. Plus the used ones depreciate like crazy despite having better maintenance and lower miles. The lease deals you might get on an Ioniq are insane, good luck getting a gas car lease with that kind of value. Let’s also not forget that the majority of housing units in the USA are single family homes where charging at home is likely to be an option.
    - closewith 9mo ago
      The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years. > From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.
- cogman10 9mo ago
  Bike > walk == public transit > used EV > new EV > used ICE > new ICE That's pretty much the order of "greenness" in personal transport. New EVs will pay off their added carbon footprint in roughly 1 or 2 years in most locations. The ultimate determining factor of how fast that is the energy mix of your local power generation. The only time it'd probably be better to continue using an ICE is if that ICE is a moped or you live in West Virginia and drive a hybrid. For pretty much all other vehicle choices, switching to an EV will be greener.
  - closewith 9mo ago
    Those must be US estimates involving huge mileage, because - taking your existing ICE car's production emissions as an already sunk cost - replacing an existing ICE with a new EV would over a decade of driving the average EU mileage (~10k km) before reaching emissions parity. It takes 2-4 years of that mileage alone for a new EV to reach lifetime emissions parity with a new ICE in the EU (which I know is longer than the US due to the vast differences in average emissions per vehicle between the two continents). For most of the world, the GP is correct. Driving whatever car you have will always be more environmentally friendly than buying a new EV. Reduce and reuse are environmental cornerstones for a reason.
    - cogman10 9mo ago
      People keep their cars for longer than 2 to 4 years and an EV sold in 2 to 4 years will likely be driven by someone else. Which is why I put a used EV as being better for the environment vs a new one. But both will be better for the environment in their lifetime than keeping a used ICE on the road. It's more economical to keep your current car until it starts seeing major mechanical issues. However, environmentally an EV will (almost) always beat an ICE, the sooner you get one the better. Especially in a place like the EU where you can get even more environmentally friendly EVs due to the lower amounts of driving. You can, for example, grab the BYD seagull which has a 30kWh battery pack. That alone significantly reduces the new EV environmental impact beyond what some of the older numbers would have shown.
      - 9mo ago
- tom86150 9mo ago
  [dead]
- _ea1k 9mo ago
  Plenty of people that can afford them and that would likely benefit are not buying them because of preference. In many cases, this is rational. Yeah, a used Model 3 with a great rate plan is probably worth it as a commuter, but what if you are an outlier? Even a low battery failure rate can be a risk, and extended warranties are expensive. But also, some of it is irrational, as the FB comments effectively feed many false fear driven narratives.
- thinkcontext 9mo ago
  > a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable I've gone back and forth on this. When you buy an EV your old ICE vehicle is not destroyed, it continues it's lifecycle when it goes to someone else. Moreover, there's value in sending a market signal in buying an EV, which is important at this stage of transition. Maybe the argument is about average age of the road fleet? That a used ICE vehicle should be replaced with a used EV?
networkadmin 9mo ago
"Save the planet" by making giant lithium strip mining operations great again. (Safely hidden out of sight in rural China or West Virginia, of course.) City slicker "logic." No thanks. I will instead actually do something to help the planet by continuing to drive decades year old vehicles whose production costs have long since been amortized, and which have much lower maintenance cost. Bonus: I can also safely park my old automobiles indoors without any worry of spontaneous combustion. #winning Another bonus: People all the time chat me up about my old automobiles, wanting to buy them. EV owners don't have the same experience for some reason.
Mawr 9mo ago
"Save the planet, buy a car!" Brings a tear to my eye.
- ZeroGravitas 9mo ago
  Perfect is the enemy of the good. What kind of car you buy is a simple but very impactful choice. One that many people are not making due to misinformation.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

singinishi 9mo ago
All the oil and gas is killing the planet. Even the gas fumes are killing you when you fill up. The sooner the better. There are lots of low cost EVs out there, especially when you factor in there’s no maintenance.
- linsomniac 9mo ago
  The maintenance factor seems to often be overlooked. The amount of time I've put into EV maintenance in the last decade is about the same as I've put into my two ICE cars, but I drive them 1/10th as much. It's really, really nice, and I don't think dealer service departments are ready for a massive switch to EV.
- neogodless 9mo ago
  Mostly agree but own an EV. "No" maintenance is an exaggeration and it's not necessary to make your point. My car's first set of tires were very bald at 25,000 miles. That's not unusual on new cars in general as they seem to come from the factory with low longevity tires, but it's still quite a short tire life. Yes anything in a gasoline engine is gone, and brakes get less use. But there are still maintenance items.
  - happyopossum 9mo ago
    When discussing vehicles it’s common to separate “wear” items and “maintenance” items. Brake pads and tires are “wear” items. Replacing your engine oil every 5-7000 miles is “maintenance”.
epistasis 9mo ago
That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they are buying used anyway.
- dangus 9mo ago
  To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Yeah lithium mining is bad, but don’t forget that oil is also extracted and “mine.” And your gas car uses a LOT of it. I wouldn’t think too much about then average new car cost of $50k. That average is skewed by: 1. Expensive new car purchases (average != median) 2. Lower income people don’t buy new cars at all. Still, some of the best new car deals are EVs because dealers can’t get rid of them due to the sudden expiration of federal incentives. Plus the used ones depreciate like crazy despite having better maintenance and lower miles. The lease deals you might get on an Ioniq are insane, good luck getting a gas car lease with that kind of value. Let’s also not forget that the majority of housing units in the USA are single family homes where charging at home is likely to be an option.
  - closewith 9mo ago
    The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years. > From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.
cogman10 9mo ago
Bike > walk == public transit > used EV > new EV > used ICE > new ICE That's pretty much the order of "greenness" in personal transport. New EVs will pay off their added carbon footprint in roughly 1 or 2 years in most locations. The ultimate determining factor of how fast that is the energy mix of your local power generation. The only time it'd probably be better to continue using an ICE is if that ICE is a moped or you live in West Virginia and drive a hybrid. For pretty much all other vehicle choices, switching to an EV will be greener.
- closewith 9mo ago
  Those must be US estimates involving huge mileage, because - taking your existing ICE car's production emissions as an already sunk cost - replacing an existing ICE with a new EV would over a decade of driving the average EU mileage (~10k km) before reaching emissions parity. It takes 2-4 years of that mileage alone for a new EV to reach lifetime emissions parity with a new ICE in the EU (which I know is longer than the US due to the vast differences in average emissions per vehicle between the two continents). For most of the world, the GP is correct. Driving whatever car you have will always be more environmentally friendly than buying a new EV. Reduce and reuse are environmental cornerstones for a reason.
  - cogman10 9mo ago
    People keep their cars for longer than 2 to 4 years and an EV sold in 2 to 4 years will likely be driven by someone else. Which is why I put a used EV as being better for the environment vs a new one. But both will be better for the environment in their lifetime than keeping a used ICE on the road. It's more economical to keep your current car until it starts seeing major mechanical issues. However, environmentally an EV will (almost) always beat an ICE, the sooner you get one the better. Especially in a place like the EU where you can get even more environmentally friendly EVs due to the lower amounts of driving. You can, for example, grab the BYD seagull which has a 30kWh battery pack. That alone significantly reduces the new EV environmental impact beyond what some of the older numbers would have shown.
    - 9mo ago
tom86150 9mo ago
[dead]
_ea1k 9mo ago
Plenty of people that can afford them and that would likely benefit are not buying them because of preference. In many cases, this is rational. Yeah, a used Model 3 with a great rate plan is probably worth it as a commuter, but what if you are an outlier? Even a low battery failure rate can be a risk, and extended warranties are expensive. But also, some of it is irrational, as the FB comments effectively feed many false fear driven narratives.
thinkcontext 9mo ago
> a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable I've gone back and forth on this. When you buy an EV your old ICE vehicle is not destroyed, it continues it's lifecycle when it goes to someone else. Moreover, there's value in sending a market signal in buying an EV, which is important at this stage of transition. Maybe the argument is about average age of the road fleet? That a used ICE vehicle should be replaced with a used EV?

networkadmin 9mo ago

"Save the planet" by making giant lithium strip mining operations great again. (Safely hidden out of sight in rural China or West Virginia, of course.) City slicker "logic." No thanks. I will instead actually do something to help the planet by continuing to drive decades year old vehicles whose production costs have long since been amortized, and which have much lower maintenance cost. Bonus: I can also safely park my old automobiles indoors without any worry of spontaneous combustion. #winning Another bonus: People all the time chat me up about my old automobiles, wanting to buy them. EV owners don't have the same experience for some reason.

Mawr 9mo ago

"Save the planet, buy a car!" Brings a tear to my eye.

ZeroGravitas 9mo ago
Perfect is the enemy of the good. What kind of car you buy is a simple but very impactful choice. One that many people are not making due to misinformation.