8 ms·

The guide to real-world EV battery health

singinishi 9mo ago
Tesla does their own with real world data. It’s a non-issue. Save the planet. Stop making excuses and get an EV.
- Etheryte 9mo ago
  While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.
  - singinishi 9mo ago
    All the oil and gas is killing the planet. Even the gas fumes are killing you when you fill up. The sooner the better. There are lots of low cost EVs out there, especially when you factor in there’s no maintenance.
    - linsomniac 9mo ago
      The maintenance factor seems to often be overlooked. The amount of time I've put into EV maintenance in the last decade is about the same as I've put into my two ICE cars, but I drive them 1/10th as much. It's really, really nice, and I don't think dealer service departments are ready for a massive switch to EV.
    - neogodless 9mo ago
      Mostly agree but own an EV. "No" maintenance is an exaggeration and it's not necessary to make your point. My car's first set of tires were very bald at 25,000 miles. That's not unusual on new cars in general as they seem to come from the factory with low longevity tires, but it's still quite a short tire life. Yes anything in a gasoline engine is gone, and brakes get less use. But there are still maintenance items.
      - happyopossum 9mo ago
        When discussing vehicles it’s common to separate “wear” items and “maintenance” items. Brake pads and tires are “wear” items. Replacing your engine oil every 5-7000 miles is “maintenance”.
  - epistasis 9mo ago
    That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they are buying used anyway.
    - dangus 9mo ago
      To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Yeah lithium mining is bad, but don’t forget that oil is also extracted and “mine.” And your gas car uses a LOT of it. I wouldn’t think too much about then average new car cost of $50k. That average is skewed by: 1. Expensive new car purchases (average != median) 2. Lower income people don’t buy new cars at all. Still, some of the best new car deals are EVs because dealers can’t get rid of them due to the sudden expiration of federal incentives. Plus the used ones depreciate like crazy despite having better maintenance and lower miles. The lease deals you might get on an Ioniq are insane, good luck getting a gas car lease with that kind of value. Let’s also not forget that the majority of housing units in the USA are single family homes where charging at home is likely to be an option.
      - closewith 9mo ago
        The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years. > From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.
  - cogman10 9mo ago
    Bike > walk == public transit > used EV > new EV > used ICE > new ICE That's pretty much the order of "greenness" in personal transport. New EVs will pay off their added carbon footprint in roughly 1 or 2 years in most locations. The ultimate determining factor of how fast that is the energy mix of your local power generation. The only time it'd probably be better to continue using an ICE is if that ICE is a moped or you live in West Virginia and drive a hybrid. For pretty much all other vehicle choices, switching to an EV will be greener.
    - closewith 9mo ago
      Those must be US estimates involving huge mileage, because - taking your existing ICE car's production emissions as an already sunk cost - replacing an existing ICE with a new EV would over a decade of driving the average EU mileage (~10k km) before reaching emissions parity. It takes 2-4 years of that mileage alone for a new EV to reach lifetime emissions parity with a new ICE in the EU (which I know is longer than the US due to the vast differences in average emissions per vehicle between the two continents). For most of the world, the GP is correct. Driving whatever car you have will always be more environmentally friendly than buying a new EV. Reduce and reuse are environmental cornerstones for a reason.
      - cogman10 9mo ago
        People keep their cars for longer than 2 to 4 years and an EV sold in 2 to 4 years will likely be driven by someone else. Which is why I put a used EV as being better for the environment vs a new one. But both will be better for the environment in their lifetime than keeping a used ICE on the road. It's more economical to keep your current car until it starts seeing major mechanical issues. However, environmentally an EV will (almost) always beat an ICE, the sooner you get one the better. Especially in a place like the EU where you can get even more environmentally friendly EVs due to the lower amounts of driving. You can, for example, grab the BYD seagull which has a 30kWh battery pack. That alone significantly reduces the new EV environmental impact beyond what some of the older numbers would have shown.
        9mo ago
  - tom86150 9mo ago
    [dead]
  - _ea1k 9mo ago
    Plenty of people that can afford them and that would likely benefit are not buying them because of preference. In many cases, this is rational. Yeah, a used Model 3 with a great rate plan is probably worth it as a commuter, but what if you are an outlier? Even a low battery failure rate can be a risk, and extended warranties are expensive. But also, some of it is irrational, as the FB comments effectively feed many false fear driven narratives.
  - thinkcontext 9mo ago
    > a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable I've gone back and forth on this. When you buy an EV your old ICE vehicle is not destroyed, it continues it's lifecycle when it goes to someone else. Moreover, there's value in sending a market signal in buying an EV, which is important at this stage of transition. Maybe the argument is about average age of the road fleet? That a used ICE vehicle should be replaced with a used EV?
- networkadmin 9mo ago
  "Save the planet" by making giant lithium strip mining operations great again. (Safely hidden out of sight in rural China or West Virginia, of course.) City slicker "logic." No thanks. I will instead actually do something to help the planet by continuing to drive decades year old vehicles whose production costs have long since been amortized, and which have much lower maintenance cost. Bonus: I can also safely park my old automobiles indoors without any worry of spontaneous combustion. #winning Another bonus: People all the time chat me up about my old automobiles, wanting to buy them. EV owners don't have the same experience for some reason.
- Mawr 9mo ago
  "Save the planet, buy a car!" Brings a tear to my eye.
  - ZeroGravitas 9mo ago
    Perfect is the enemy of the good. What kind of car you buy is a simple but very impactful choice. One that many people are not making due to misinformation.
anonu 9mo ago
> How long do electric car batteries last? The article never answers the question. But if you assume 70% end-of-life threshold with 2.3% loss per year - then we're looking at 13 years.
- criley2 9mo ago
  Why is 70% a end of life threshold? Considering that most major models are sold with configurations where the entry level begins under 70% compared to the "Long Range" model, clearly 70% is a perfectly fine level of battery for some users. I myself have a 11 year old Nissan Leaf with pretty significant battery degradation (the guessometer says 70 mi range but I wouldn't count on more than 35-40) and it's fine for probably 95% of my driving. If I were to buy an electric car with 300-350 miles of range today, I could easily see myself finding a ton of value in it in 20 or even 30 years. It's still more range than my current one! Lol.
  - Eisenstein 9mo ago
    Battery degradation is non-linear, and when it reaches a certain point of degradation it can be become unstable. This has lead to 80% being the traditionally considered point for EOL of a Li-Ion pack. However, this is a rule of thumb and the data is evolving with the technology. "When the battery degrades to a certain point, for instance, if a battery can only retain 80% of its initial capacity,9, 10, 11 the battery should be retired to ensure the safety and reliability of the battery-powered systems." Xiaosong Hu, Le Xu, Xianke Lin, Michael Pecht, Battery Lifetime Prognostics, Joule, Volume 4, Issue 2, 2020, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435119305859 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511...
- verelo 9mo ago
  It’s great seeing the numbers continue to hold after a decent period of time. We’ve noticed after 6 years out Tesla, the battery seems to charge slower than it used to, but otherwise all is well. I just love the convenience of charging at home, gas stations seem so odd and antiquated now.
nritchie 9mo ago
Hopefully, in coming years, we will see more practically designed EVs that are more affordable. A practical car doesn't need neck-snapping acceleration, every bell-and-whistle and room for a family of six with a dog. I'd like to believe that as batteries cost drop, the incentive to justify the extra cost will drop. Then we can get back to "just basic transportation" rather than a luxury product for the rich. While $31k isn't exactly cheap, the base new Leaf is heading the right direction.
- dangus 9mo ago
  At this point most EVs are exactly the way you describe and Tesla is an outlier. Look at Hyundai/Kia’s lineup. The Niro, EV6, and EV9 are essentially the three major segments of American car preferences. They aren’t particularly fast or exotic. They don’t really cost a whole lot more to buy/own than alternatives in the same segment especially on a monthly payment or buying one used, they just aren’t chosen at a high rate compared to gas powered alternatives. Tesla just used the neck-snapping acceleration to market EVs by cool factor rather than by economics. And that was a smart idea to get people in showrooms.
  - conception 9mo ago
    I always drive my EV6 in eco mode because normal and sport feel dangerously fast. I think my 0-60 in sport mode is 4 seconds? The Niro however is spot on.
    - happyopossum 9mo ago
      The only ev6 that will do 0-60 that fast is the GT, the standard one is in the 6-7s range which is the same as a typical gas crossover.
      - _ea1k 9mo ago
        Cheap crossovers and compact SUVs tend to be >8s. In practice even that makes them sound faster than they are, as they require an aggressive launch and consistent high RPMs to get there. The 6-7s EVs feel much faster than that!
oklahomasports 9mo ago
81% of original capacity for many cars means when driving at highway speeds you will get like 250 miles or less range per charge. Still dramatically less than gas cars.
- magicalhippo 9mo ago
  Sure but it's also more than enough for what many use their car for. Especially if you can charge at home.
- conception 9mo ago
  While true, an important factor that I didn’t realize until I had one is if you charge at home you wake up with a full tank of”of gas” every day. So yes, you have to stop for a charge on exceptional trips but every other day you aren’t late for work because you need gas or have to stop on the way home. And it’s not just the time to pump, but to get to the station and wait perhaps (costco gas). Your car always “has gas” and all that time is returned to your life.
  - oklahomasports 9mo ago
    Yes but an enormous number of people use vehicles for work or live in apartments. Still a ways to go for EVs to be viable and a no brainer
- apinstein 9mo ago
  While true, this either matters for you or it doesn’t. Classic Innovator’s Dilemma. My EV gets only 230mi range at max, and I only charge to 85% which is like 190mi. But I do it at home and never have any range anxiety. The trajectories for battery improvements indicate it is just a matter of time before those with larger range needs are addressed satisfactorily. If you cannot slow charge at home or work, it’s a tough story, EV’s aren’t right for you yet, and that’s ok. Roll out of slow charging is less clear that it will be solved in a scaled way. I am not one that believes that 5-10m EV charging is a good goal, it’s very high power and likely not a good price trade off for the time saved. Current 20-30m will likely be the broad solution for those that want EV and cannot charge at home, though I think that’s not a very good solution.
happyopossum 9mo ago
Important to note that this article is geared toward Fleet Managers, so terms like “average service life” may not apply. For example the average car in the us survives 12.6 years before being junked, totaled, etc. which is far longer than a car would be in fleet service at a company.
- bryanlarsen 9mo ago
  You're misreading that stat. The average car in the US is 12.6 years old. At 12.6 years they're only about half way to being scrapped.

Tesla does their own with real world data. It’s a non-issue. Save the planet. Stop making excuses and get an EV.

Etheryte 9mo ago
While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.
- singinishi 9mo ago
  All the oil and gas is killing the planet. Even the gas fumes are killing you when you fill up. The sooner the better. There are lots of low cost EVs out there, especially when you factor in there’s no maintenance.
  - linsomniac 9mo ago
    The maintenance factor seems to often be overlooked. The amount of time I've put into EV maintenance in the last decade is about the same as I've put into my two ICE cars, but I drive them 1/10th as much. It's really, really nice, and I don't think dealer service departments are ready for a massive switch to EV.
  - neogodless 9mo ago
    Mostly agree but own an EV. "No" maintenance is an exaggeration and it's not necessary to make your point. My car's first set of tires were very bald at 25,000 miles. That's not unusual on new cars in general as they seem to come from the factory with low longevity tires, but it's still quite a short tire life. Yes anything in a gasoline engine is gone, and brakes get less use. But there are still maintenance items.
    - happyopossum 9mo ago
      When discussing vehicles it’s common to separate “wear” items and “maintenance” items. Brake pads and tires are “wear” items. Replacing your engine oil every 5-7000 miles is “maintenance”.
- epistasis 9mo ago
  That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they are buying used anyway.
  - dangus 9mo ago
    To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Yeah lithium mining is bad, but don’t forget that oil is also extracted and “mine.” And your gas car uses a LOT of it. I wouldn’t think too much about then average new car cost of $50k. That average is skewed by: 1. Expensive new car purchases (average != median) 2. Lower income people don’t buy new cars at all. Still, some of the best new car deals are EVs because dealers can’t get rid of them due to the sudden expiration of federal incentives. Plus the used ones depreciate like crazy despite having better maintenance and lower miles. The lease deals you might get on an Ioniq are insane, good luck getting a gas car lease with that kind of value. Let’s also not forget that the majority of housing units in the USA are single family homes where charging at home is likely to be an option.
    - closewith 9mo ago
      The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years. > From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV. Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.
- cogman10 9mo ago
  Bike > walk == public transit > used EV > new EV > used ICE > new ICE That's pretty much the order of "greenness" in personal transport. New EVs will pay off their added carbon footprint in roughly 1 or 2 years in most locations. The ultimate determining factor of how fast that is the energy mix of your local power generation. The only time it'd probably be better to continue using an ICE is if that ICE is a moped or you live in West Virginia and drive a hybrid. For pretty much all other vehicle choices, switching to an EV will be greener.
  - closewith 9mo ago
    Those must be US estimates involving huge mileage, because - taking your existing ICE car's production emissions as an already sunk cost - replacing an existing ICE with a new EV would over a decade of driving the average EU mileage (~10k km) before reaching emissions parity. It takes 2-4 years of that mileage alone for a new EV to reach lifetime emissions parity with a new ICE in the EU (which I know is longer than the US due to the vast differences in average emissions per vehicle between the two continents). For most of the world, the GP is correct. Driving whatever car you have will always be more environmentally friendly than buying a new EV. Reduce and reuse are environmental cornerstones for a reason.
    - cogman10 9mo ago
      People keep their cars for longer than 2 to 4 years and an EV sold in 2 to 4 years will likely be driven by someone else. Which is why I put a used EV as being better for the environment vs a new one. But both will be better for the environment in their lifetime than keeping a used ICE on the road. It's more economical to keep your current car until it starts seeing major mechanical issues. However, environmentally an EV will (almost) always beat an ICE, the sooner you get one the better. Especially in a place like the EU where you can get even more environmentally friendly EVs due to the lower amounts of driving. You can, for example, grab the BYD seagull which has a 30kWh battery pack. That alone significantly reduces the new EV environmental impact beyond what some of the older numbers would have shown.
      - 9mo ago
- tom86150 9mo ago
  [dead]
- _ea1k 9mo ago
  Plenty of people that can afford them and that would likely benefit are not buying them because of preference. In many cases, this is rational. Yeah, a used Model 3 with a great rate plan is probably worth it as a commuter, but what if you are an outlier? Even a low battery failure rate can be a risk, and extended warranties are expensive. But also, some of it is irrational, as the FB comments effectively feed many false fear driven narratives.
- thinkcontext 9mo ago
  > a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable I've gone back and forth on this. When you buy an EV your old ICE vehicle is not destroyed, it continues it's lifecycle when it goes to someone else. Moreover, there's value in sending a market signal in buying an EV, which is important at this stage of transition. Maybe the argument is about average age of the road fleet? That a used ICE vehicle should be replaced with a used EV?
networkadmin 9mo ago
"Save the planet" by making giant lithium strip mining operations great again. (Safely hidden out of sight in rural China or West Virginia, of course.) City slicker "logic." No thanks. I will instead actually do something to help the planet by continuing to drive decades year old vehicles whose production costs have long since been amortized, and which have much lower maintenance cost. Bonus: I can also safely park my old automobiles indoors without any worry of spontaneous combustion. #winning Another bonus: People all the time chat me up about my old automobiles, wanting to buy them. EV owners don't have the same experience for some reason.
Mawr 9mo ago
"Save the planet, buy a car!" Brings a tear to my eye.
- ZeroGravitas 9mo ago
  Perfect is the enemy of the good. What kind of car you buy is a simple but very impactful choice. One that many people are not making due to misinformation.

anonu 9mo ago

> How long do electric car batteries last? The article never answers the question. But if you assume 70% end-of-life threshold with 2.3% loss per year - then we're looking at 13 years.

criley2 9mo ago
Why is 70% a end of life threshold? Considering that most major models are sold with configurations where the entry level begins under 70% compared to the "Long Range" model, clearly 70% is a perfectly fine level of battery for some users. I myself have a 11 year old Nissan Leaf with pretty significant battery degradation (the guessometer says 70 mi range but I wouldn't count on more than 35-40) and it's fine for probably 95% of my driving. If I were to buy an electric car with 300-350 miles of range today, I could easily see myself finding a ton of value in it in 20 or even 30 years. It's still more range than my current one! Lol.
- Eisenstein 9mo ago
  Battery degradation is non-linear, and when it reaches a certain point of degradation it can be become unstable. This has lead to 80% being the traditionally considered point for EOL of a Li-Ion pack. However, this is a rule of thumb and the data is evolving with the technology. "When the battery degrades to a certain point, for instance, if a battery can only retain 80% of its initial capacity,9, 10, 11 the battery should be retired to ensure the safety and reliability of the battery-powered systems." Xiaosong Hu, Le Xu, Xianke Lin, Michael Pecht, Battery Lifetime Prognostics, Joule, Volume 4, Issue 2, 2020, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435119305859 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511...
verelo 9mo ago
It’s great seeing the numbers continue to hold after a decent period of time. We’ve noticed after 6 years out Tesla, the battery seems to charge slower than it used to, but otherwise all is well. I just love the convenience of charging at home, gas stations seem so odd and antiquated now.

nritchie 9mo ago

Hopefully, in coming years, we will see more practically designed EVs that are more affordable. A practical car doesn't need neck-snapping acceleration, every bell-and-whistle and room for a family of six with a dog. I'd like to believe that as batteries cost drop, the incentive to justify the extra cost will drop. Then we can get back to "just basic transportation" rather than a luxury product for the rich. While $31k isn't exactly cheap, the base new Leaf is heading the right direction.

dangus 9mo ago
At this point most EVs are exactly the way you describe and Tesla is an outlier. Look at Hyundai/Kia’s lineup. The Niro, EV6, and EV9 are essentially the three major segments of American car preferences. They aren’t particularly fast or exotic. They don’t really cost a whole lot more to buy/own than alternatives in the same segment especially on a monthly payment or buying one used, they just aren’t chosen at a high rate compared to gas powered alternatives. Tesla just used the neck-snapping acceleration to market EVs by cool factor rather than by economics. And that was a smart idea to get people in showrooms.
- conception 9mo ago
  I always drive my EV6 in eco mode because normal and sport feel dangerously fast. I think my 0-60 in sport mode is 4 seconds? The Niro however is spot on.
  - happyopossum 9mo ago
    The only ev6 that will do 0-60 that fast is the GT, the standard one is in the 6-7s range which is the same as a typical gas crossover.
    - _ea1k 9mo ago
      Cheap crossovers and compact SUVs tend to be >8s. In practice even that makes them sound faster than they are, as they require an aggressive launch and consistent high RPMs to get there. The 6-7s EVs feel much faster than that!

oklahomasports 9mo ago

81% of original capacity for many cars means when driving at highway speeds you will get like 250 miles or less range per charge. Still dramatically less than gas cars.

magicalhippo 9mo ago
Sure but it's also more than enough for what many use their car for. Especially if you can charge at home.
conception 9mo ago
While true, an important factor that I didn’t realize until I had one is if you charge at home you wake up with a full tank of”of gas” every day. So yes, you have to stop for a charge on exceptional trips but every other day you aren’t late for work because you need gas or have to stop on the way home. And it’s not just the time to pump, but to get to the station and wait perhaps (costco gas). Your car always “has gas” and all that time is returned to your life.
- oklahomasports 9mo ago
  Yes but an enormous number of people use vehicles for work or live in apartments. Still a ways to go for EVs to be viable and a no brainer
apinstein 9mo ago
While true, this either matters for you or it doesn’t. Classic Innovator’s Dilemma. My EV gets only 230mi range at max, and I only charge to 85% which is like 190mi. But I do it at home and never have any range anxiety. The trajectories for battery improvements indicate it is just a matter of time before those with larger range needs are addressed satisfactorily. If you cannot slow charge at home or work, it’s a tough story, EV’s aren’t right for you yet, and that’s ok. Roll out of slow charging is less clear that it will be solved in a scaled way. I am not one that believes that 5-10m EV charging is a good goal, it’s very high power and likely not a good price trade off for the time saved. Current 20-30m will likely be the broad solution for those that want EV and cannot charge at home, though I think that’s not a very good solution.

happyopossum 9mo ago

Important to note that this article is geared toward Fleet Managers, so terms like “average service life” may not apply. For example the average car in the us survives 12.6 years before being junked, totaled, etc. which is far longer than a car would be in fleet service at a company.

bryanlarsen 9mo ago
You're misreading that stat. The average car in the US is 12.6 years old. At 12.6 years they're only about half way to being scrapped.