4 ms·

I'm sure design theory says the new ones are better, but the very first one was much clearer for users. Also on the phone I could say "click on the ink with the

by kuon 9mo ago

I'm sure design theory says the new ones are better, but the very first one was much clearer for users. Also on the phone I could say "click on the ink with the pen".

gumby271 9mo ago
I like how the new icon forces you to do product placement for Apple devices just to explain it. Tap the icon with the Apple Pencil and rectangle. Just don't convey it using color, that's now completely unpredictable.
tern 9mo ago
There is no such "design theory," only schools of design
- adastra22 9mo ago
  I wish this was better understood.
- crazygringo 9mo ago
  There are basic principles of design -- of balance, emphasis, color, weight, etc. -- that are very much part of a general "design theory". That aren't dependent on any particular school of thought.
  - jrowen 9mo ago
    I feel like this is actually quite a bold claim. Just within this thread there is wild disagreement. The term “design” is so insanely broad. There are Dieter Rams-style principles of functional objects that have sort of “won out”, but with graphical design, it’s essentially art, it’s all so subjective.
    - crazygringo 9mo ago
      I don't think so. Nobody disagrees that a brighter color draws more attention than a subdued one, or that the eye is drawn to a heavier weight before a lighter one. Nobody disagrees that it looks more balanced to have the round parts of letters like "O" and S" extend slightly beyond the baseline and cap line, beyond where the bottom and top os "E" and "B" are. These, and 200 (?) other things, are the basic principles that everyone learns and plays with -- that graphic designers are taught. It's the vocabulary of design, and is universal. "Design theory" is one way of referring to it -- theory of color, shape, etc. The things that make things clear or confusing. It's really quite objective, in the sense of what looks pleasing and balanced to the eye. It doesn't appear to be cultural. Schools of design have more to do with values and purpose, and following fads and trends and all that. Maybe that's what you're referring to? They can have their own "theories". But when people talk about "design theory" they're usually talking about the basic principles/vocabulary of design.
      - jrowen 9mo ago
        > Nobody disagrees that a brighter color draws more attention than a subdued one, or that the eye is drawn to a heavier weight before a lighter one. But they disagree on which of those is "good design" in which context. For example, some want bold colors loudly distinguishing app icons, some want a consistent minimal theme (idk the state of desktop customization today but it was pretty wild in the early 2000s). > Nobody disagrees that it looks more balanced to have the round parts of letters like "O" and S" extend slightly beyond the baseline and cap line, beyond where the bottom and top os "E" and "B" are. I'm not totally sure what this means but it sounds incredibly dubious to state as fact and there are no doubt heavily used fonts that don't do it. For virtually any "universal" graphic design "rule" there will be successful examples of things that did not follow it. There will be a camp that disagrees with it. They also change and drift, they're relative to time and place, nothing is really static. There can be inherent value in explicitly doing something as a counterpoint or juxtaposition to a dominant trend. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't learn the vocabulary and the body of accumulated experience, but there's no way you're going to make a universally right and objectively correct decision.
        8mo ago
EGreg 9mo ago
I remember growing up with Apple computers, even the black-and-white Macs were easier to understand than today's nonsense, with its "liquid glass" and hidden modes like scrollbars that suddenly appear. Kid Pix was for kids. Kids could understand it. Easily. Macs were easy to use and understand. What happened? Steve Jobs passed away, that's what happened... and everyone stepped up to "make their mark", first of all Jony Ive.
Gigachad 9mo ago
On the phone you can now say "Command + space, then search pages"
- dmd 9mo ago
  For a moment I thought you meant you could say "command space" to Siri on iOS and was prepared to have my mind blown.
internet2000 9mo ago
"Ink? Oh is that what's in the bottle?"
robocat 9mo ago
That icon is pretty terrible. Fountain pens were obsolete 50 years ago and ink in bottles is even more outdated. What's with the shiny spherical bottle? It feels like a hipster icon design to me. Of course picking a meaningful icon is trés difficult. If we are given the name and then we learn the icon, then perhaps it doesn't matter too much what the icon is?
- sevensor 9mo ago
  > Fountain pens were obsolete 50 years ago and ink in bottles is even more outdated My friend, you have no idea what you’re missing out on. Even cheap fountain pens can be very good these days, and we are living in a golden age of bottled inks.
  - robocat 9mo ago
    > My friend, you have no idea what you’re missing out on Being left handed has its advantages, however smearing wet ink over the page as you write doesn't endear one to nibbed pens. And leaked ink truely sucks (although I would guess modern technology is better at avoiding that). Is a fountain pen good for illustration? The very very small amount of writing I do these days is usually mixed words with images/symbols/lines. To me out in the colonies, fountain pen culture appears to be more about either signaling pretentiousness (what is Montblanc) or designer hipsterism. I wonder how many practical engineers use a fountain pen?
    - sevensor 9mo ago
      > I wonder how many practical engineers use a fountain pen? Not a lot, but more than zero. I take copious meeting notes and I do a lot of my serious thinking on paper. I find fountain pens vastly more comfortable for writing multiple pages of text, compared to ballpoints. Left handed users do have to adjust their writing technique, and it’s understandable that many do not find it worth the effort. I have never held a Montblanc. I believe they run to the hundreds if not thousands of dollars. An extremely niche form of wealth signaling. I’m not sure who they’re even for? Fancy New York bankers maybe? Extremely devoted pen hobbyists? I’d be afraid to carry one around.

by kuon 9mo ago

I'm sure design theory says the new ones are better, but the very first one was much clearer for users. Also on the phone I could say "click on the ink with the pen".

gumby271 9mo ago

I like how the new icon forces you to do product placement for Apple devices just to explain it. Tap the icon with the Apple Pencil and rectangle. Just don't convey it using color, that's now completely unpredictable.

tern 9mo ago

There is no such "design theory," only schools of design

adastra22 9mo ago
I wish this was better understood.
crazygringo 9mo ago
There are basic principles of design -- of balance, emphasis, color, weight, etc. -- that are very much part of a general "design theory". That aren't dependent on any particular school of thought.
- jrowen 9mo ago
  I feel like this is actually quite a bold claim. Just within this thread there is wild disagreement. The term “design” is so insanely broad. There are Dieter Rams-style principles of functional objects that have sort of “won out”, but with graphical design, it’s essentially art, it’s all so subjective.
  - crazygringo 9mo ago
    I don't think so. Nobody disagrees that a brighter color draws more attention than a subdued one, or that the eye is drawn to a heavier weight before a lighter one. Nobody disagrees that it looks more balanced to have the round parts of letters like "O" and S" extend slightly beyond the baseline and cap line, beyond where the bottom and top os "E" and "B" are. These, and 200 (?) other things, are the basic principles that everyone learns and plays with -- that graphic designers are taught. It's the vocabulary of design, and is universal. "Design theory" is one way of referring to it -- theory of color, shape, etc. The things that make things clear or confusing. It's really quite objective, in the sense of what looks pleasing and balanced to the eye. It doesn't appear to be cultural. Schools of design have more to do with values and purpose, and following fads and trends and all that. Maybe that's what you're referring to? They can have their own "theories". But when people talk about "design theory" they're usually talking about the basic principles/vocabulary of design.
    - jrowen 9mo ago
      > Nobody disagrees that a brighter color draws more attention than a subdued one, or that the eye is drawn to a heavier weight before a lighter one. But they disagree on which of those is "good design" in which context. For example, some want bold colors loudly distinguishing app icons, some want a consistent minimal theme (idk the state of desktop customization today but it was pretty wild in the early 2000s). > Nobody disagrees that it looks more balanced to have the round parts of letters like "O" and S" extend slightly beyond the baseline and cap line, beyond where the bottom and top os "E" and "B" are. I'm not totally sure what this means but it sounds incredibly dubious to state as fact and there are no doubt heavily used fonts that don't do it. For virtually any "universal" graphic design "rule" there will be successful examples of things that did not follow it. There will be a camp that disagrees with it. They also change and drift, they're relative to time and place, nothing is really static. There can be inherent value in explicitly doing something as a counterpoint or juxtaposition to a dominant trend. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't learn the vocabulary and the body of accumulated experience, but there's no way you're going to make a universally right and objectively correct decision.
      - 8mo ago

EGreg 9mo ago

I remember growing up with Apple computers, even the black-and-white Macs were easier to understand than today's nonsense, with its "liquid glass" and hidden modes like scrollbars that suddenly appear. Kid Pix was for kids. Kids could understand it. Easily. Macs were easy to use and understand. What happened? Steve Jobs passed away, that's what happened... and everyone stepped up to "make their mark", first of all Jony Ive.

Gigachad 9mo ago

On the phone you can now say "Command + space, then search pages"

dmd 9mo ago
For a moment I thought you meant you could say "command space" to Siri on iOS and was prepared to have my mind blown.

internet2000 9mo ago

"Ink? Oh is that what's in the bottle?"

robocat 9mo ago

That icon is pretty terrible. Fountain pens were obsolete 50 years ago and ink in bottles is even more outdated. What's with the shiny spherical bottle? It feels like a hipster icon design to me. Of course picking a meaningful icon is trés difficult. If we are given the name and then we learn the icon, then perhaps it doesn't matter too much what the icon is?

sevensor 9mo ago
> Fountain pens were obsolete 50 years ago and ink in bottles is even more outdated My friend, you have no idea what you’re missing out on. Even cheap fountain pens can be very good these days, and we are living in a golden age of bottled inks.
- robocat 9mo ago
  > My friend, you have no idea what you’re missing out on Being left handed has its advantages, however smearing wet ink over the page as you write doesn't endear one to nibbed pens. And leaked ink truely sucks (although I would guess modern technology is better at avoiding that). Is a fountain pen good for illustration? The very very small amount of writing I do these days is usually mixed words with images/symbols/lines. To me out in the colonies, fountain pen culture appears to be more about either signaling pretentiousness (what is Montblanc) or designer hipsterism. I wonder how many practical engineers use a fountain pen?
  - sevensor 9mo ago
    > I wonder how many practical engineers use a fountain pen? Not a lot, but more than zero. I take copious meeting notes and I do a lot of my serious thinking on paper. I find fountain pens vastly more comfortable for writing multiple pages of text, compared to ballpoints. Left handed users do have to adjust their writing technique, and it’s understandable that many do not find it worth the effort. I have never held a Montblanc. I believe they run to the hundreds if not thousands of dollars. An extremely niche form of wealth signaling. I’m not sure who they’re even for? Fancy New York bankers maybe? Extremely devoted pen hobbyists? I’d be afraid to carry one around.