5 ms·

I would’ve walked for days to a CompUSA and spent my life savings if there was anything remotely equivalent to this when I was learning C on my Macintosh 4400 i

I would’ve walked for days to a CompUSA and spent my life savings if there was anything remotely equivalent to this when I was learning C on my Macintosh 4400 in 1997 People don’t appreciate what they have

lifetimerubyist 10mo ago
It’s worse. They’re proud they don’t know.
- risyachka 10mo ago
  Its like ordering a project from upwork- someone did it for you, you have no idea what is going on, kinda works though.
  - datsci_est_2015 10mo ago
    Great analogy. “I don’t know any C++ but I hired some people on Upwork and they delivered this software demo.”
    - whateveracct 10mo ago
      Con fuckign gratys, u can buy compute
  - kmijyiyxfbklao 10mo ago
    Since there are no humans involved, it's more like growing a tree. Sure it's good to know how trees grow, but not knowing about cells didn't stop thousands of years of agriculture.
    - ambicapter 10mo ago
      Very interesting analogy
      - amlib 10mo ago
        Except that the tree is so malformed and the core structure so unsound that it can't grow much past its germination and dies of malnourishment because since you have zero understanding of biology, forestry and related fields there is no knowledge to save it or help it grow healthy. Also out of nowhere an invasive species of spiders that was inside the seed starts replicating geometrically and within seconds wraps the whole forest with webs and asks for a ransom in order to produce the secret enzyme that can dissolve it. Trying to torch it will set the whole forest on fire, brute force is futile. Unfortunately, you assumed the process would only plagiarize the good bits, but seems like it also sometimes plagiarizes the bad bits too, oops.
    - Jaysobel 10mo ago
      The Gas Town piece reminded me of this as well. The author there leaned into role playing, social and culture analogies, and it made a lot more sense than an architecture diagram in which one node is “black box intelligence” with a single line leading out of it…
    - risyachka 10mo ago
      Its not like tree at all because tree is one and done. Code is a project that has to be updated, fixed, etc. So when something breaks - you have to ask the contractor again. It may not find an issue, or mess things up when it tries to fix it making project useless, etc. Its more like a car. Every time something goes wrong you will pay for it - sometimes it will get back in even worse shape (no refunds though), sometimes it will cost you x100 because there is nothing you can do, you need it and you can't manage it on your own.
      - eks391 10mo ago
        Trees are not static, unchanging, pop into existence and forget about, things. Trees that don't get regular "updates" of adequate sunlight, water, and nutrients die. In fact, too much light or water could kill it. Or soil that is not the right courseness or acidity level could hamper or prevent growth. Now add "bugs". Literal bugs, diseases, and even competing plants that could eat, poison, or choke the tree. You might be thinking of trees that are indigenous to an area. Even these compete for the resources and plagues of their area, but are more apt than the trees accustom to different environments, and even they go through the cycle of life. I think his analogy was perfect, because this is the first time coding could resemble nature. We are just used to the carefully curated human made code, as there has not been such a thing as naturally occuring, no human interaction, code before
    - kshri24 10mo ago
      I wouldn't say it is a tree as such as at least trees are deterministic where input parameters (seed, environment, sunlight) define the output. LLM outputs are akin to a mutant tree that can decide to randomly sprout a giant mushroom instead of a branch. And you won't have any idea why despite your input parameters being deterministic.
      - doug_durham 10mo ago
        In what world are trees deterministic? There are a set of parameters that you can control that give you a higher probability of success, but uncontrollable variables can wipe you out.
        kshri24 10mo ago
        Explained here [1]. We live in a pseudorandom World. So everything is deterministic if you have the same set of input parameters. That includes trees as well. I am not talking about controllable/uncontrollable variables. That has no bearing on whether a process is deterministic in theory or not. If you can theoretically control all variables (even if you practically cannot), you have a deterministic process as you can reproduce the entire path: from input to output. LLMs are currently a black box. You have no access to the billions of parameters within the model, making it non-deterministic. The day we have tools where we can control all the billions of parameters within the model, then we can retrace the exact path taken, thereby making it deterministic. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46663052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46663052
      - dpc050505 10mo ago
        You haven't done a lot of gardening if you don't know plants get 'randomly' (there's a biological explanation, but with the massive amounts of variables it feels random) attacked by parasites all the time. Go look at pot growing subreddits, they spend an enormous chunk of their time fighting mites.
        kshri24 10mo ago
        Determinism is not strictly anti-randomness (though I can see why one can confuse it to be polar opposites). Rather we do not even have true randomness (at least not proven) and should actually be called pseudorandom. Determinism just means that if you have the same input parameters (considering all parameters have been accounted for), you will get the same result. In other words, you can start with a particular random seed (pseudorandom seed to be precise) and always end up with the same end result and that would be considered deterministic. > You haven't done a lot of gardening if you don't know plants I grow "herbs". > there's a biological explanation Exactly. There is always an explanation for every phenomena that occurs in this observable, physical World. There is a defined cause and effect. Even if it "feels random". That's not how it is with LLMs. Because in between your deterministic input parameters and the output that is generated, there is a black box: the model itself. You have no access to the billions of parameters within the models which means you are not sure you can always reproduce the output. That black box is what causes non-determinism. EDIT: just wanted to add - "attacked by parasites all the time", is why I said if you have control over the environment. Controlling environment encompasses dealing with parasites as well. Think of well-controlled environment like a lab.
- doug_durham 10mo ago
  "They" are? I didn't see that in the article. It sounds like you are projecting your prejudices on to a non-defined out group.
imiric 10mo ago
Did you actually learn C? Be thankful nothing like this existed in 1997. A machine generating code you don't understand is not the way to learn a programming language. It's a way to create software without programming. These tools can be used as learning assistants, but the vast majority of people don't use them as such. This will lead to a collective degradation of knowledge and skills, and the proliferation of shoddily built software with more issues than anyone relying on these tools will know how to fix. At least people who can actually program will be in demand to fix this mess for years to come.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- metaltyphoon 10mo ago
  I don't understand how OP thinks that being oblivious how anything work underneath is a good thing. There is a threshold of abstraction to which you must know how it works to effectively fix it when it breaks.
  - jedberg 10mo ago
    You can be a super productive Python coder without any clue how assembly works. Vibe coding is just one more level of abstraction. Just like how we still need assembly and C programmers for the most critical use cases, we'll still need Python and Golang programmers for things that need to be more efficient than what was vibe coded. But do you really need your $whatever to be super efficient, or is it good enough if it just works?
    - kshri24 10mo ago
      One is deterministic the other is not. I leave it to you to determine which is which in this scenario.
      - afro88 10mo ago
        Humans writing code are also non deterministic. When you vibe code you're basically a product owner / manager. Vibe coding isn't a higher level programming language, it's an abstraction over a software engineer / engineering team.

lifetimerubyist 10mo ago

It’s worse. They’re proud they don’t know.

risyachka 10mo ago
Its like ordering a project from upwork- someone did it for you, you have no idea what is going on, kinda works though.
- datsci_est_2015 10mo ago
  Great analogy. “I don’t know any C++ but I hired some people on Upwork and they delivered this software demo.”
  - whateveracct 10mo ago
    Con fuckign gratys, u can buy compute
- kmijyiyxfbklao 10mo ago
  Since there are no humans involved, it's more like growing a tree. Sure it's good to know how trees grow, but not knowing about cells didn't stop thousands of years of agriculture.
  - ambicapter 10mo ago
    Very interesting analogy
    - amlib 10mo ago
      Except that the tree is so malformed and the core structure so unsound that it can't grow much past its germination and dies of malnourishment because since you have zero understanding of biology, forestry and related fields there is no knowledge to save it or help it grow healthy. Also out of nowhere an invasive species of spiders that was inside the seed starts replicating geometrically and within seconds wraps the whole forest with webs and asks for a ransom in order to produce the secret enzyme that can dissolve it. Trying to torch it will set the whole forest on fire, brute force is futile. Unfortunately, you assumed the process would only plagiarize the good bits, but seems like it also sometimes plagiarizes the bad bits too, oops.
  - Jaysobel 10mo ago
    The Gas Town piece reminded me of this as well. The author there leaned into role playing, social and culture analogies, and it made a lot more sense than an architecture diagram in which one node is “black box intelligence” with a single line leading out of it…
  - risyachka 10mo ago
    Its not like tree at all because tree is one and done. Code is a project that has to be updated, fixed, etc. So when something breaks - you have to ask the contractor again. It may not find an issue, or mess things up when it tries to fix it making project useless, etc. Its more like a car. Every time something goes wrong you will pay for it - sometimes it will get back in even worse shape (no refunds though), sometimes it will cost you x100 because there is nothing you can do, you need it and you can't manage it on your own.
    - eks391 10mo ago
      Trees are not static, unchanging, pop into existence and forget about, things. Trees that don't get regular "updates" of adequate sunlight, water, and nutrients die. In fact, too much light or water could kill it. Or soil that is not the right courseness or acidity level could hamper or prevent growth. Now add "bugs". Literal bugs, diseases, and even competing plants that could eat, poison, or choke the tree. You might be thinking of trees that are indigenous to an area. Even these compete for the resources and plagues of their area, but are more apt than the trees accustom to different environments, and even they go through the cycle of life. I think his analogy was perfect, because this is the first time coding could resemble nature. We are just used to the carefully curated human made code, as there has not been such a thing as naturally occuring, no human interaction, code before
  - kshri24 10mo ago
    I wouldn't say it is a tree as such as at least trees are deterministic where input parameters (seed, environment, sunlight) define the output. LLM outputs are akin to a mutant tree that can decide to randomly sprout a giant mushroom instead of a branch. And you won't have any idea why despite your input parameters being deterministic.
    - doug_durham 10mo ago
      In what world are trees deterministic? There are a set of parameters that you can control that give you a higher probability of success, but uncontrollable variables can wipe you out.
      - kshri24 10mo ago
        Explained here [1]. We live in a pseudorandom World. So everything is deterministic if you have the same set of input parameters. That includes trees as well. I am not talking about controllable/uncontrollable variables. That has no bearing on whether a process is deterministic in theory or not. If you can theoretically control all variables (even if you practically cannot), you have a deterministic process as you can reproduce the entire path: from input to output. LLMs are currently a black box. You have no access to the billions of parameters within the model, making it non-deterministic. The day we have tools where we can control all the billions of parameters within the model, then we can retrace the exact path taken, thereby making it deterministic. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46663052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46663052
    - dpc050505 10mo ago
      You haven't done a lot of gardening if you don't know plants get 'randomly' (there's a biological explanation, but with the massive amounts of variables it feels random) attacked by parasites all the time. Go look at pot growing subreddits, they spend an enormous chunk of their time fighting mites.
      - kshri24 10mo ago
        Determinism is not strictly anti-randomness (though I can see why one can confuse it to be polar opposites). Rather we do not even have true randomness (at least not proven) and should actually be called pseudorandom. Determinism just means that if you have the same input parameters (considering all parameters have been accounted for), you will get the same result. In other words, you can start with a particular random seed (pseudorandom seed to be precise) and always end up with the same end result and that would be considered deterministic. > You haven't done a lot of gardening if you don't know plants I grow "herbs". > there's a biological explanation Exactly. There is always an explanation for every phenomena that occurs in this observable, physical World. There is a defined cause and effect. Even if it "feels random". That's not how it is with LLMs. Because in between your deterministic input parameters and the output that is generated, there is a black box: the model itself. You have no access to the billions of parameters within the models which means you are not sure you can always reproduce the output. That black box is what causes non-determinism. EDIT: just wanted to add - "attacked by parasites all the time", is why I said if you have control over the environment. Controlling environment encompasses dealing with parasites as well. Think of well-controlled environment like a lab.
doug_durham 10mo ago
"They" are? I didn't see that in the article. It sounds like you are projecting your prejudices on to a non-defined out group.

imiric 10mo ago

Did you actually learn C? Be thankful nothing like this existed in 1997. A machine generating code you don't understand is not the way to learn a programming language. It's a way to create software without programming. These tools can be used as learning assistants, but the vast majority of people don't use them as such. This will lead to a collective degradation of knowledge and skills, and the proliferation of shoddily built software with more issues than anyone relying on these tools will know how to fix. At least people who can actually program will be in demand to fix this mess for years to come.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
metaltyphoon 10mo ago
I don't understand how OP thinks that being oblivious how anything work underneath is a good thing. There is a threshold of abstraction to which you must know how it works to effectively fix it when it breaks.
- jedberg 10mo ago
  You can be a super productive Python coder without any clue how assembly works. Vibe coding is just one more level of abstraction. Just like how we still need assembly and C programmers for the most critical use cases, we'll still need Python and Golang programmers for things that need to be more efficient than what was vibe coded. But do you really need your $whatever to be super efficient, or is it good enough if it just works?
  - kshri24 10mo ago
    One is deterministic the other is not. I leave it to you to determine which is which in this scenario.
    - afro88 10mo ago
      Humans writing code are also non deterministic. When you vibe code you're basically a product owner / manager. Vibe coding isn't a higher level programming language, it's an abstraction over a software engineer / engineering team.