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Just to engage with your “12 year old to produce by yourself” , here are some examples of art made by Picasso in his early teens to mid teens. It’s absolutely

by prox 9mo ago

Just to engage with your “12 year old to produce by yourself” , here are some examples of art made by Picasso in his early teens to mid teens. It’s absolutely possible to be that good. Especially in the middle ages / early renaissance with the work you did for guilds and working for masters as an apprentice. At eleven years old: https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-3939.php https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-3939.php At fourteen at his sisters wedding: https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-9.php https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-9.php At fifteen https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-11.php https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-11.php

nextaccountic 9mo ago
> It’s absolutely possible to be that good. Sure, but not if this is your first painting. Humans can't one-shot art like this
- Nition 9mo ago
  The title is sensationalised. They mean the earliest painting of his that we have. It's also a copy of an existing engraving.
  - nextaccountic 9mo ago
    Then that's very believable (well, depending on what age he started). As a comparison, Mozart's compositions when he was 15 years old was unbelievable, unless you put in context he was already composing music at 5 years old
vilhelm_s 9mo ago
But he had not been an apprentice before making this, he started the apprenticeship that year, and this is supposed to be the first thing he ever painted. > Michelangelo's biographers—Giorgio Vasari (1511–1574) and Ascanio Condivi (1525–1574)—tell us that, aside from some drawings, his first work was a painted copy after a well-known engraving by Martin Schongauer (1448–1491) showing Saint Anthony tormented by demons. Made about 1487–88 under the guidance of his friend and fellow pupil Francesco Granacci, Michelangelo's painting was much admired; it was even said to have incited Ghirlandaio's envy. [https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2009/michelangelo https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2009/michelan...]
- prox 9mo ago
  I can’t respond much too this being Michelangelo’ painting, but if he was an apprentice under his fellow pupil it’s possible that he just did minor things or filled in. It was how you learned. You did final retouching and such.
quotemstr 9mo ago
More broadly, we're doing people a disservice today by treating them as juveniles until they graduate college. When someone's that good, we shouldn't waste four years of his life in school he doesn't need, but instead let him be productive immediately out of college. Christ a-fucking mighty, in some states, the law says that Michelangelo, had he been alive today,would have had to sit on a booster seat at the age at which he made this painting. Absurd. One of my more heretical beliefs is that tech companies should do more hiring of high brilliant people right out of high school.
- w10-1 9mo ago
  > When someone's that good, we shouldn't waste four years of his life in school he doesn't need, but instead let him be productive Or perhaps we need more challenging schools. I'd hate to harvest before cultivation has a chance to grow without the constraints of organizational biases
  - quotemstr 9mo ago
    18 years is more than enough time to ripen. - Marquis de Lafayette was only 19 when he helped the US win independence. - Alexander began conquering when he was 20, smashed Persia at 25, and "wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer" at 30. - Pascal and Galois did revolutionary math before 20. - Mary Shelly wrote Frankenstein at 18! We need more rigorous secondary education and a pathway that lets people with rocket-ship trajectories skip useless tertiary education. I am sick and tired coddling mediocre people by pretending geniuses don't exist. If I ran things, I'd set up magnet schools nation-wide.
    - fumar 9mo ago
      What is stopping people from creating schools for gifted youth?
      - quotemstr 9mo ago
        It's controversial in education schools to "track" students, i.e. sort them into ability-categories and tailor each category's experience to its needs. For example, activist groups in New York City have been trying to kill gifted-and-talented schools and programs (e.g. Bronx Science high school) for years. It's painful to watch. People can and do create rigorous private schools, but they're not accessible to the masses and often embody the same anti-talent mentality public ones do.
vitro 9mo ago
True, no phones, no distractions, I can see someone who finds their passion early on to get this good.
- estearum 9mo ago
  And who typically have a robust economy for craft built around them. So with AI we can expect such artistic development to effectively cease, or to be almost always channeled through the averageness-finding-machines.
- neilpmas 9mo ago
  True this - without hacker news I might have emptied the dishwasher.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
mbivert 9mo ago
Agreeing with the main point; on a tangential note: > At eleven years old: https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-3939.php https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-3939.php This one is a copy (Bargue plate − a famous set of plates designed to train students efficiently). And to be fair, it's not _that_ great of a copy. The paintings really aren't impressive either: compare them to student works from e.g. the Angel Academy[0] (yes, they are older than 15). Incidentally, they also use Bargue plates a little to train students, and are far, far more demanding with themselves than Picasso in terms of accuracy and cleanliness. Picasso wasn't terrible − he's definitely better than a non-painter − but he's genuinely far from having ever reached the level of his peers. It's like comparing a food truck with historical French cooks. [0]: https://angelacademyofart.com/student-works/ https://angelacademyofart.com/student-works/
- soneca 9mo ago
  They are 18+ at Angel Academy, right? I would say they are a lot older than 11, 14, and 15. One year I think is a lot of development in the teens. Doesn't seem a fair comparison
  - mbivert 9mo ago
    They are indeed. Have a look here [0] for ≤18 works [0]: https://www.artrenewal.org/14thARCSalon/Category/DaVinciInitiative https://www.artrenewal.org/14thARCSalon/Category/DaVinciInit...
TheOtherHobbes 9mo ago
Klimt did the first three when he was 17. There are even earlier works which are not much less sophisticated. http://art-klimt.com/early_works.html http://art-klimt.com/early_works.html Some people are just prodigies - very, very few, but it's a real phenomenon. Even with early craft training, which people don't get today, exceptional talent still cuts through. This is why the common "There's no such thing as talent, it's just hard work" line can't possibly be true. It's soothing to believe that you too could be a genius if only you put the hours in, but it just doesn't work like that. Ability is set by a talent ceiling, which is on a bell curve. "Most people don't reach their ceiling" and "There are extreme outliers of native ability" can both be true at the same time.
- shermantanktop 9mo ago
  Along with the self-deluding work=genius idea: - Some use extreme outliers to justify their own failure to get close to their ceiling. "I can't be Einstein, why should I try?" - Some (parents, coaches, motivational speakers) also use extreme outliers to claim there are no limits/ceilings for others. "If you can dream it you can do it!" (but somehow it doesn't seem to apply to them)
- davidwritesbugs 9mo ago
  > This is why the common "There's no such thing as talent, it's just hard work" line can't possibly be true. please stop killing my delusions.
  - sph 9mo ago
    The best essay I read last year described how there are two types of artists: those born with great talent, that usually create their masterpieces in their early 20s and coast for the rest of their life, and those that take most of their adulthood before finding their voice, peaking late in their 40s and 50s. The author used Picasso as an example of the former, and Kurt Vonnegut for the latter. Gave me the greatest impulse to explore my creative drive like nothing else before, after spending my 20s lost in a daze. I know you’re joking, but if you aren’t, do not lose hope yet.
hahahahhaah 9mo ago
Wow. A great service to us as these are almost a "photo" into that world.
NonHyloMorph 9mo ago
The part with being an apprentice in a masters workshop is of great importance in regard to that time imho. Neuroplasticity at that age is insane and if you spent all your time on just that, especially if predisposed to a certain way of processing visuals and image, that is a totally different circumstance then a 12 to 13 year old that is also capable of writing, maths, history, different languages, and all the other things we do in the way generalised education at that age is laid out in our modern world.

by prox 9mo ago

nextaccountic 9mo ago

> It’s absolutely possible to be that good. Sure, but not if this is your first painting. Humans can't one-shot art like this

Nition 9mo ago
The title is sensationalised. They mean the earliest painting of his that we have. It's also a copy of an existing engraving.
- nextaccountic 9mo ago
  Then that's very believable (well, depending on what age he started). As a comparison, Mozart's compositions when he was 15 years old was unbelievable, unless you put in context he was already composing music at 5 years old

vilhelm_s 9mo ago

But he had not been an apprentice before making this, he started the apprenticeship that year, and this is supposed to be the first thing he ever painted. > Michelangelo's biographers—Giorgio Vasari (1511–1574) and Ascanio Condivi (1525–1574)—tell us that, aside from some drawings, his first work was a painted copy after a well-known engraving by Martin Schongauer (1448–1491) showing Saint Anthony tormented by demons. Made about 1487–88 under the guidance of his friend and fellow pupil Francesco Granacci, Michelangelo's painting was much admired; it was even said to have incited Ghirlandaio's envy. [https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2009/michelangelo https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2009/michelan...]

prox 9mo ago
I can’t respond much too this being Michelangelo’ painting, but if he was an apprentice under his fellow pupil it’s possible that he just did minor things or filled in. It was how you learned. You did final retouching and such.

quotemstr 9mo ago

More broadly, we're doing people a disservice today by treating them as juveniles until they graduate college. When someone's that good, we shouldn't waste four years of his life in school he doesn't need, but instead let him be productive immediately out of college. Christ a-fucking mighty, in some states, the law says that Michelangelo, had he been alive today,would have had to sit on a booster seat at the age at which he made this painting. Absurd. One of my more heretical beliefs is that tech companies should do more hiring of high brilliant people right out of high school.

w10-1 9mo ago
> When someone's that good, we shouldn't waste four years of his life in school he doesn't need, but instead let him be productive Or perhaps we need more challenging schools. I'd hate to harvest before cultivation has a chance to grow without the constraints of organizational biases
- quotemstr 9mo ago
  18 years is more than enough time to ripen. - Marquis de Lafayette was only 19 when he helped the US win independence. - Alexander began conquering when he was 20, smashed Persia at 25, and "wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer" at 30. - Pascal and Galois did revolutionary math before 20. - Mary Shelly wrote Frankenstein at 18! We need more rigorous secondary education and a pathway that lets people with rocket-ship trajectories skip useless tertiary education. I am sick and tired coddling mediocre people by pretending geniuses don't exist. If I ran things, I'd set up magnet schools nation-wide.
  - fumar 9mo ago
    What is stopping people from creating schools for gifted youth?
    - quotemstr 9mo ago
      It's controversial in education schools to "track" students, i.e. sort them into ability-categories and tailor each category's experience to its needs. For example, activist groups in New York City have been trying to kill gifted-and-talented schools and programs (e.g. Bronx Science high school) for years. It's painful to watch. People can and do create rigorous private schools, but they're not accessible to the masses and often embody the same anti-talent mentality public ones do.

vitro 9mo ago

True, no phones, no distractions, I can see someone who finds their passion early on to get this good.

estearum 9mo ago
And who typically have a robust economy for craft built around them. So with AI we can expect such artistic development to effectively cease, or to be almost always channeled through the averageness-finding-machines.
neilpmas 9mo ago
True this - without hacker news I might have emptied the dishwasher.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]

mbivert 9mo ago

Agreeing with the main point; on a tangential note: > At eleven years old: https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-3939.php https://www.pablo-ruiz-picasso.net/work-3939.php This one is a copy (Bargue plate − a famous set of plates designed to train students efficiently). And to be fair, it's not _that_ great of a copy. The paintings really aren't impressive either: compare them to student works from e.g. the Angel Academy[0] (yes, they are older than 15). Incidentally, they also use Bargue plates a little to train students, and are far, far more demanding with themselves than Picasso in terms of accuracy and cleanliness. Picasso wasn't terrible − he's definitely better than a non-painter − but he's genuinely far from having ever reached the level of his peers. It's like comparing a food truck with historical French cooks. [0]: https://angelacademyofart.com/student-works/ https://angelacademyofart.com/student-works/

soneca 9mo ago
They are 18+ at Angel Academy, right? I would say they are a lot older than 11, 14, and 15. One year I think is a lot of development in the teens. Doesn't seem a fair comparison
- mbivert 9mo ago
  They are indeed. Have a look here [0] for ≤18 works [0]: https://www.artrenewal.org/14thARCSalon/Category/DaVinciInitiative https://www.artrenewal.org/14thARCSalon/Category/DaVinciInit...

TheOtherHobbes 9mo ago

Klimt did the first three when he was 17. There are even earlier works which are not much less sophisticated. http://art-klimt.com/early_works.html http://art-klimt.com/early_works.html Some people are just prodigies - very, very few, but it's a real phenomenon. Even with early craft training, which people don't get today, exceptional talent still cuts through. This is why the common "There's no such thing as talent, it's just hard work" line can't possibly be true. It's soothing to believe that you too could be a genius if only you put the hours in, but it just doesn't work like that. Ability is set by a talent ceiling, which is on a bell curve. "Most people don't reach their ceiling" and "There are extreme outliers of native ability" can both be true at the same time.

shermantanktop 9mo ago
Along with the self-deluding work=genius idea: - Some use extreme outliers to justify their own failure to get close to their ceiling. "I can't be Einstein, why should I try?" - Some (parents, coaches, motivational speakers) also use extreme outliers to claim there are no limits/ceilings for others. "If you can dream it you can do it!" (but somehow it doesn't seem to apply to them)
davidwritesbugs 9mo ago
> This is why the common "There's no such thing as talent, it's just hard work" line can't possibly be true. please stop killing my delusions.
- sph 9mo ago
  The best essay I read last year described how there are two types of artists: those born with great talent, that usually create their masterpieces in their early 20s and coast for the rest of their life, and those that take most of their adulthood before finding their voice, peaking late in their 40s and 50s. The author used Picasso as an example of the former, and Kurt Vonnegut for the latter. Gave me the greatest impulse to explore my creative drive like nothing else before, after spending my 20s lost in a daze. I know you’re joking, but if you aren’t, do not lose hope yet.

hahahahhaah 9mo ago

Wow. A great service to us as these are almost a "photo" into that world.

NonHyloMorph 9mo ago

The part with being an apprentice in a masters workshop is of great importance in regard to that time imho. Neuroplasticity at that age is insane and if you spent all your time on just that, especially if predisposed to a certain way of processing visuals and image, that is a totally different circumstance then a 12 to 13 year old that is also capable of writing, maths, history, different languages, and all the other things we do in the way generalised education at that age is laid out in our modern world.