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Not sure why you're gettimg downvoted. This is exactly what he did to instant messaging; extremely damaging to everyone and without solid arguments for such des

by fsflover 10mo ago

Not sure why you're gettimg downvoted. This is exactly what he did to instant messaging; extremely damaging to everyone and without solid arguments for such design.

maqp 10mo ago
Or, he took a barely niché messaging app plugin (OTR), improved it to provide forward secrecy for non-round trips, and deployed the current state-of-the art end-to-end encryption to over 3,000,000,000 users, as Signal isn't the only tool to use double-ratchet E2EE. >broken SGX metadata protections Citation needed. Also, SGX is just there to try to verify what the server is doing, including that the server isn't collecting metadata. The real talking is done by the responses to warrants https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/ where they've been able to hand over only two timestamps of when the user created their account and when they were last seen. If that's not good enough for you, you're better off using Tor-p2p messengers that don't have servers collecting your metadata at all, such as Cwtch or Quiet. >weak supply chain integrity You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. >a mandate everyone supply their phone numbers That's how you combat spam. It sucks but there are very few options outside the corner of Zooko's triangle that has your username look like "4sci35xrhp2d45gbm3qpta7ogfedonuw2mucmc36jxemucd7fmgzj3ad". >and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses.
- josephg 10mo ago
  > You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. I wish apple & google provided a way to verify that an app was actually compiled from some specific git SHA. Right now applications can claim they're opensource, and claim that you can read the source code yourself. But there's no way to check that the authors haven't added any extra nasties into the code before building and submitting the APK / ios application bundle. It would be pretty easy to do. Just have a build process at apple / google which you can point to a git repo, and let them build the application. Or - even easier - just have a way to see the application's signature in the app store. Then opensource app developers could compile their APK / ios app using github actions. And 3rd parties could check the SHA matches the app binaries in the store.
  - rcxdude 10mo ago
    This is what F-droid does (well, I suspect most apps don't have reproducable builds that would allow 3rd-party verification), but Signal does not want 3rd-party builds of their client anyhow.
    - actionfromafar 10mo ago
      They could still figure out a way to attest their builds against source.
      - fsflover 10mo ago
        This is much harder when Signal actively goes against that.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- Maken 10mo ago
  >over 3,000,000,000 users Is that a typo or are you really implying half the human population use Signal? Edit: I misread, you are counting almost every messaging app user.
  - rcxdude 10mo ago
    Yeah, whatsapp uses the same protocol.
    - lrvick 9mo ago
      Well, we do not really have any idea what Whatsapp uses, because it is proprietary.
  - maqp 10mo ago
    Just WhatsApp. Moxie's ideas are used in plenty of other messengers. The context was "what Moxie did for the field of instant messaging".
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- stavros 10mo ago
  Exactly. These arguments are so weak that they read more like a smear campaign than an actual technical discussion. "You have to agree to Apple's terms to use it"? What's Signal meant to do, jailbreak your phone before installing itself on it?
  - kelipso 10mo ago
    Moxie Marlinspike sounds like some 90s intelligence guy’s understanding of what an appealing name to hacker groups would sound like. Put a guy like that as so-called creator of some encryption protocol for messaging and promote the app like it’s for secret conversations and you think people won’t be suspicious? It screams honeypot like nothing else.
    - stavros 10mo ago
      So the argument against Signal is now "the creator's nickname sounds odd"? I mean, OK? Keep using WhatsApp, Telegram or Instagram if you think those are more private than Signal.
      - kelipso 10mo ago
        Does anyone actually think that’s his real name?
        stavros 10mo ago
        I'm sure some people who don't realise it's a pseudonym do? Sounds like you're one of them.
        kelipso 10mo ago
        Lol, why are you so mad? My while point is that he doesn’t reveal his actual name.
        stavros 10mo ago
- fsflover 10mo ago
  >> and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? > Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses. No, that's what happens when you actively forbid alternative clients and servers, prevent (secure) alternative methods of delivery for your app and force people to rely on the American megacorps known for helping governmental spying on users, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810
- sudahtigabulan 10mo ago
  >>broken SGX metadata protections >Citation needed. https://sgx.fail https://sgx.fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List_of_SGX_vulnerabilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List...

Not sure why you're gettimg downvoted. This is exactly what he did to instant messaging; extremely damaging to everyone and without solid arguments for such design.

maqp 10mo ago

Or, he took a barely niché messaging app plugin (OTR), improved it to provide forward secrecy for non-round trips, and deployed the current state-of-the art end-to-end encryption to over 3,000,000,000 users, as Signal isn't the only tool to use double-ratchet E2EE. >broken SGX metadata protections Citation needed. Also, SGX is just there to try to verify what the server is doing, including that the server isn't collecting metadata. The real talking is done by the responses to warrants https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/ where they've been able to hand over only two timestamps of when the user created their account and when they were last seen. If that's not good enough for you, you're better off using Tor-p2p messengers that don't have servers collecting your metadata at all, such as Cwtch or Quiet. >weak supply chain integrity You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. >a mandate everyone supply their phone numbers That's how you combat spam. It sucks but there are very few options outside the corner of Zooko's triangle that has your username look like "4sci35xrhp2d45gbm3qpta7ogfedonuw2mucmc36jxemucd7fmgzj3ad". >and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses.

josephg 10mo ago
> You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. I wish apple & google provided a way to verify that an app was actually compiled from some specific git SHA. Right now applications can claim they're opensource, and claim that you can read the source code yourself. But there's no way to check that the authors haven't added any extra nasties into the code before building and submitting the APK / ios application bundle. It would be pretty easy to do. Just have a build process at apple / google which you can point to a git repo, and let them build the application. Or - even easier - just have a way to see the application's signature in the app store. Then opensource app developers could compile their APK / ios app using github actions. And 3rd parties could check the SHA matches the app binaries in the store.
- rcxdude 10mo ago
  This is what F-droid does (well, I suspect most apps don't have reproducable builds that would allow 3rd-party verification), but Signal does not want 3rd-party builds of their client anyhow.
  - actionfromafar 10mo ago
    They could still figure out a way to attest their builds against source.
    - fsflover 10mo ago
      This is much harder when Signal actively goes against that.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
Maken 10mo ago
>over 3,000,000,000 users Is that a typo or are you really implying half the human population use Signal? Edit: I misread, you are counting almost every messaging app user.
- rcxdude 10mo ago
  Yeah, whatsapp uses the same protocol.
  - lrvick 9mo ago
    Well, we do not really have any idea what Whatsapp uses, because it is proprietary.
- maqp 10mo ago
  Just WhatsApp. Moxie's ideas are used in plenty of other messengers. The context was "what Moxie did for the field of instant messaging".
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
stavros 10mo ago
Exactly. These arguments are so weak that they read more like a smear campaign than an actual technical discussion. "You have to agree to Apple's terms to use it"? What's Signal meant to do, jailbreak your phone before installing itself on it?
- kelipso 10mo ago
  Moxie Marlinspike sounds like some 90s intelligence guy’s understanding of what an appealing name to hacker groups would sound like. Put a guy like that as so-called creator of some encryption protocol for messaging and promote the app like it’s for secret conversations and you think people won’t be suspicious? It screams honeypot like nothing else.
  - stavros 10mo ago
    So the argument against Signal is now "the creator's nickname sounds odd"? I mean, OK? Keep using WhatsApp, Telegram or Instagram if you think those are more private than Signal.
    - kelipso 10mo ago
      Does anyone actually think that’s his real name?
      - stavros 10mo ago
        I'm sure some people who don't realise it's a pseudonym do? Sounds like you're one of them.
        kelipso 10mo ago
        Lol, why are you so mad? My while point is that he doesn’t reveal his actual name.
        stavros 10mo ago
fsflover 10mo ago
>> and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? > Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses. No, that's what happens when you actively forbid alternative clients and servers, prevent (secure) alternative methods of delivery for your app and force people to rely on the American megacorps known for helping governmental spying on users, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810
sudahtigabulan 10mo ago
>>broken SGX metadata protections >Citation needed. https://sgx.fail https://sgx.fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List_of_SGX_vulnerabilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List...