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> it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. Employment is a business transaction not a transaction based on ethics viewpoints

moron4hire 9mo ago
Just because there's no law saying you have to have ethics in software development doesn't mean you shouldn't have ethics in software development.
- shiroiuma 9mo ago
  No one's talking about building ethically-problematic software projects here like software to aid despotic regimes, harm human rights, etc. We're talking about business projects that senior engineers believe will fail either in execution or in the market. There's nothing unethical about just letting these things fail, especially if they aren't even a project you're assigned to work on. It's upper management's responsibility to assess risk and pick good project to assign resources to; as a senior engineer, your only job is to advise them when consulted. If upper management is incompetent and doing a bad job choosing projects, then your recourse is to go looking for a better-run company, not telling your executives how to do their jobs.
JohnFen 9mo ago
If you're not being ethical in your business transactions and decisions, you're bad at business. And life.
- recursive 9mo ago
  It seems there's a difference between unethical projects and projects that are just a bad idea. If someone wants to pay someone else to work on Uber for cat socks, but with AI, I don't think there's much of an ethical dimension.
  - JohnFen 9mo ago
    Yes, that's certainly true. I guess what I was alluding to is that I think ethics should inform all decision-making, including business. A bad idea isn't necessarily unethical, although the execution of it (or even a good idea) can be. Unless the idea harms unconsenting others. Generally, it's not what you sing, it's how you sing it.
    - hackable_sand 9mo ago
      Ego-driven development is certainly unethical.
ajkjk 9mo ago
that's the attitude of an unethical person, yes (also that of a "non-ethical" person, like an animal or a person with no agency in the matter, if you want to make the distinction. I'm not sure we should but I guess it's an interesting question)

moron4hire 9mo ago

Just because there's no law saying you have to have ethics in software development doesn't mean you shouldn't have ethics in software development.

shiroiuma 9mo ago
No one's talking about building ethically-problematic software projects here like software to aid despotic regimes, harm human rights, etc. We're talking about business projects that senior engineers believe will fail either in execution or in the market. There's nothing unethical about just letting these things fail, especially if they aren't even a project you're assigned to work on. It's upper management's responsibility to assess risk and pick good project to assign resources to; as a senior engineer, your only job is to advise them when consulted. If upper management is incompetent and doing a bad job choosing projects, then your recourse is to go looking for a better-run company, not telling your executives how to do their jobs.

JohnFen 9mo ago

If you're not being ethical in your business transactions and decisions, you're bad at business. And life.

recursive 9mo ago
It seems there's a difference between unethical projects and projects that are just a bad idea. If someone wants to pay someone else to work on Uber for cat socks, but with AI, I don't think there's much of an ethical dimension.
- JohnFen 9mo ago
  Yes, that's certainly true. I guess what I was alluding to is that I think ethics should inform all decision-making, including business. A bad idea isn't necessarily unethical, although the execution of it (or even a good idea) can be. Unless the idea harms unconsenting others. Generally, it's not what you sing, it's how you sing it.
  - hackable_sand 9mo ago
    Ego-driven development is certainly unethical.

ajkjk 9mo ago

that's the attitude of an unethical person, yes (also that of a "non-ethical" person, like an animal or a person with no agency in the matter, if you want to make the distinction. I'm not sure we should but I guess it's an interesting question)