4 ms·

Spending time in parts of Latin America or western Europe or east Asia and then coming back to the US, you can see a lot of ways in which we've built loneliness

Spending time in parts of Latin America or western Europe or east Asia and then coming back to the US, you can see a lot of ways in which we've built loneliness into the fabric of US culture. It goes beyond car culture. It's probably illegal to build a cafe within walking distance of your neighborhood or into the first floor of your apartment complex. Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home.

jacobgkau 10mo ago
> or into the first floor of your apartment complex. I wouldn't trust a cafe built into an apartment complex. I'd expect it to be low-quality, over-priced food placed specifically to try and make a quick buck off people who don't know any better or who physically can't get somewhere better. You're right that it goes beyond car culture (and zoning laws are part of car culture), but I think it also goes beyond zoning laws. A lack of a social contract between people (individually) and businesses these days is probably involved, too. All these things are interrelated.
- PlatoIsADisease 10mo ago
  Maybe consider that the overpriced part is fine because you are paying for the time you save. There are many ways to look at things -t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools.
  - jacobgkau 10mo ago
    There's a limit to the convenience factor. Fast food used to be cheap because it was faster than real food. Now it's expensive, and less real than it was to start with. A hip no-name cafe owned by a huge conglomerate charging $17 for a microwaved sandwich or something is objectively a bad deal. Ensuring you never have to leave the comfort of your apartment complex is also of questionable relevance to solving loneliness/getting people to meet each other. > -t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools. Did you accidentally paste part of a different comment or something?
- SchemaLoad 10mo ago
  Only if it's a rare novelty. If having a cafe near by is just the norm, it isn't any more expensive.
  - jacobgkau 10mo ago
    I didn't say "near by," I said "built into an apartment complex," which is one of the things the person I replied to threw out casually as an option.
    - SchemaLoad 10mo ago
      I've lived in places that had restaurants on the ground floor of the building and they were the same prices as anywhere else. I'm actually surprised you find this unrealistic since it's so common in Australian cities. It's pretty much standard to have retail on ground and apartments above.
      - dpark 10mo ago
        This is common in American cities, too. And European cities I’ve visited. And probably most cities that I haven’t visited. When I visited Tokyo one really jarring thing was to realize that restaurants and cafes and such were often on the 2nd or 3rd floor. It’s so dense and so high-rise, in some areas at least, that these “ground floor” shops are also pushed upwards and inhabit the bottom 2-3 floors instead of just the ground floor.
    - yibg 10mo ago
      Why is that odd? Lots of apartment buildings in big cities have the first floor (or 2) for retail. Some apartments / condos have a whole mall downstairs.
- t-writescode 10mo ago
  I’m literally surrounded by these shops, as is anyone in any town that doesn’t depend on suburbia. It’s *wonderful* and the prices are good. I’m eating a whole dinner for about $10 tonight, out. Easily like 1300 calories of very delicious food. In the PNW.
  - jacobgkau 10mo ago
    You're "literally surrounded" by cafes built into the first floor of your apartment complex? Because that's what I was very clearly talking about. Not shops within walking distance. (I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious.")
    - t-writescode 10mo ago
      Well, let’s see, in this building - an apartment complex, there’s: * a coffee shop (that just closed) * a desert shop * a fine dining shop (that is open rarely The apartment building next door has: * a ramen shop * a high-end burger shop * a high-end barber shop The apartment one apartment away has: * a nail salon * a hawaiian food shop So, yes.
    - dpark 10mo ago
      Where do you live that this is so bizarre? Multi story buildings with retail space on the bottom and residential space at the top are very common in cities. > I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious." What’s the point of this? This is just needlessly rude.
PlatoIsADisease 10mo ago
As someone who was a libertarian as a child, I assure you the idea of relaxing regulations is quite unpopular. Lots of factors cause this. Obviously established businesses hate competition. There seems to be a tendency for politicians to make more laws as a bandaid rather than remove old(but this isnt universally true). And finally and probably most importantly, people like the status quo. Change is scary. Also I live in the suburbs and we have a coffee shop within 2 minutes walking. I just have a hard time paying $4 for a coffee to meet people when most people are on their laptops anyway. My friends come from sports clubs, parties, and the parents of my kids via birthday parties.
alecco 10mo ago
> Latin America or western Europe or east Asia I can attest both LatAm and Europe are quickly turning the same way. At least in the bigger cities. Take public transport and 70% are frying their brains with their phones on algorithmic timelines, dumb mobile games, or worse. Women even more. You go to a bar and try to start a conversation and people look at you like you are a creep or a scammer. I've heard this happens to Gen Z, too.
- timeon 10mo ago
  > phones on algorithmic timelines Are you suggesting that American tech helped spread this loneliness worldwide? Ultimate triumph of individualism.
  - jb1991 10mo ago
    It’s hard to deny the role of social media in all of this.
- watwut 10mo ago
  Public transport was never a place where you start conversation with a stranger. Nor even meant to be that space. I genuinely do not understand why would you pick public transport as a place where you would expect people to socialize. And yes, I was using public transport before cell phones. And yes, women are using public transport more then men, always were, because if the family have only one car, man is typically the one using it.
cm2012 10mo ago
Both latam and western europe report and east Asia report higher loneliness rates than the US or the Nordics. Very consistently.
abalashov 10mo ago
> Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home. It's so strange how this works. They go, sometimes repeatedly, to enjoy these rather basic things, but behave as though they're visiting a quaint Disneyland of sorts and as though there could be no lessons they could take away and apply toward a vision of their own community...
- notatoad 10mo ago
  americans are too terrified of somebody getting something for free to ever tolerate that. it's okay in other countries, because other countries are deserving of charity, and the americans who travel to them have implicitly passed the wealth test by affording to travel there. but back home in america, any nice thing in a public space might be an un-earned benefit to an american citizen who is slightly less rich. and we can't have that. if an American wants an amenity, they sould pay for it. parks, benches, pathways, any sort of gathering space, it all can't be had because it might attract poor people.
NedF 10mo ago
[dead]
marcus_holmes 10mo ago
American culture allows you folks to talk to each other, though. Growing up British means that I literally can't talk to a stranger unless I'm in a pub and have two pints inside me.
- MrVandemar 10mo ago
  There's a loophole. All dog owners are allowed to strike up conversations with other dog owners about their dogs. That's only if you like dogs, I guess.
- carabiner 10mo ago
  In America no one really drinks any more.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]

jacobgkau 10mo ago

> or into the first floor of your apartment complex. I wouldn't trust a cafe built into an apartment complex. I'd expect it to be low-quality, over-priced food placed specifically to try and make a quick buck off people who don't know any better or who physically can't get somewhere better. You're right that it goes beyond car culture (and zoning laws are part of car culture), but I think it also goes beyond zoning laws. A lack of a social contract between people (individually) and businesses these days is probably involved, too. All these things are interrelated.

PlatoIsADisease 10mo ago
Maybe consider that the overpriced part is fine because you are paying for the time you save. There are many ways to look at things -t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools.
- jacobgkau 10mo ago
  There's a limit to the convenience factor. Fast food used to be cheap because it was faster than real food. Now it's expensive, and less real than it was to start with. A hip no-name cafe owned by a huge conglomerate charging $17 for a microwaved sandwich or something is objectively a bad deal. Ensuring you never have to leave the comfort of your apartment complex is also of questionable relevance to solving loneliness/getting people to meet each other. > -t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools. Did you accidentally paste part of a different comment or something?
SchemaLoad 10mo ago
Only if it's a rare novelty. If having a cafe near by is just the norm, it isn't any more expensive.
- jacobgkau 10mo ago
  I didn't say "near by," I said "built into an apartment complex," which is one of the things the person I replied to threw out casually as an option.
  - SchemaLoad 10mo ago
    I've lived in places that had restaurants on the ground floor of the building and they were the same prices as anywhere else. I'm actually surprised you find this unrealistic since it's so common in Australian cities. It's pretty much standard to have retail on ground and apartments above.
    - dpark 10mo ago
      This is common in American cities, too. And European cities I’ve visited. And probably most cities that I haven’t visited. When I visited Tokyo one really jarring thing was to realize that restaurants and cafes and such were often on the 2nd or 3rd floor. It’s so dense and so high-rise, in some areas at least, that these “ground floor” shops are also pushed upwards and inhabit the bottom 2-3 floors instead of just the ground floor.
  - yibg 10mo ago
    Why is that odd? Lots of apartment buildings in big cities have the first floor (or 2) for retail. Some apartments / condos have a whole mall downstairs.
t-writescode 10mo ago
I’m literally surrounded by these shops, as is anyone in any town that doesn’t depend on suburbia. It’s *wonderful* and the prices are good. I’m eating a whole dinner for about $10 tonight, out. Easily like 1300 calories of very delicious food. In the PNW.
- jacobgkau 10mo ago
  You're "literally surrounded" by cafes built into the first floor of your apartment complex? Because that's what I was very clearly talking about. Not shops within walking distance. (I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious.")
  - t-writescode 10mo ago
    Well, let’s see, in this building - an apartment complex, there’s: * a coffee shop (that just closed) * a desert shop * a fine dining shop (that is open rarely The apartment building next door has: * a ramen shop * a high-end burger shop * a high-end barber shop The apartment one apartment away has: * a nail salon * a hawaiian food shop So, yes.
  - dpark 10mo ago
    Where do you live that this is so bizarre? Multi story buildings with retail space on the bottom and residential space at the top are very common in cities. > I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious." What’s the point of this? This is just needlessly rude.

PlatoIsADisease 10mo ago

As someone who was a libertarian as a child, I assure you the idea of relaxing regulations is quite unpopular. Lots of factors cause this. Obviously established businesses hate competition. There seems to be a tendency for politicians to make more laws as a bandaid rather than remove old(but this isnt universally true). And finally and probably most importantly, people like the status quo. Change is scary. Also I live in the suburbs and we have a coffee shop within 2 minutes walking. I just have a hard time paying $4 for a coffee to meet people when most people are on their laptops anyway. My friends come from sports clubs, parties, and the parents of my kids via birthday parties.

alecco 10mo ago

> Latin America or western Europe or east Asia I can attest both LatAm and Europe are quickly turning the same way. At least in the bigger cities. Take public transport and 70% are frying their brains with their phones on algorithmic timelines, dumb mobile games, or worse. Women even more. You go to a bar and try to start a conversation and people look at you like you are a creep or a scammer. I've heard this happens to Gen Z, too.

timeon 10mo ago
> phones on algorithmic timelines Are you suggesting that American tech helped spread this loneliness worldwide? Ultimate triumph of individualism.
- jb1991 10mo ago
  It’s hard to deny the role of social media in all of this.
watwut 10mo ago
Public transport was never a place where you start conversation with a stranger. Nor even meant to be that space. I genuinely do not understand why would you pick public transport as a place where you would expect people to socialize. And yes, I was using public transport before cell phones. And yes, women are using public transport more then men, always were, because if the family have only one car, man is typically the one using it.

cm2012 10mo ago

Both latam and western europe report and east Asia report higher loneliness rates than the US or the Nordics. Very consistently.

abalashov 10mo ago

> Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home. It's so strange how this works. They go, sometimes repeatedly, to enjoy these rather basic things, but behave as though they're visiting a quaint Disneyland of sorts and as though there could be no lessons they could take away and apply toward a vision of their own community...

notatoad 10mo ago
americans are too terrified of somebody getting something for free to ever tolerate that. it's okay in other countries, because other countries are deserving of charity, and the americans who travel to them have implicitly passed the wealth test by affording to travel there. but back home in america, any nice thing in a public space might be an un-earned benefit to an american citizen who is slightly less rich. and we can't have that. if an American wants an amenity, they sould pay for it. parks, benches, pathways, any sort of gathering space, it all can't be had because it might attract poor people.

NedF 10mo ago

[dead]

marcus_holmes 10mo ago

American culture allows you folks to talk to each other, though. Growing up British means that I literally can't talk to a stranger unless I'm in a pub and have two pints inside me.

MrVandemar 10mo ago
There's a loophole. All dog owners are allowed to strike up conversations with other dog owners about their dogs. That's only if you like dogs, I guess.
carabiner 10mo ago
In America no one really drinks any more.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]