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Why have we all lost the ability to think in a nuanced way? It’s very disturbing to witness, particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart peop

Why have we all lost the ability to think in a nuanced way? It’s very disturbing to witness, particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be marked as intrinsically “illegal” while also believing that an immigration queue should exist and skipping it is immoral and should be illegal. Etcetera, etcetera. You don’t HAVE to dedicate yourself to a fully polarized set of beliefs. Nuance is possible. What the hell is causing us to lose our minds like this? Is it really just social media? So frustrating to witness.

smokel 9mo ago
The core issue is not that people cannot think with nuance, but that nuance is costly and poorly rewarded.
- periodjet 9mo ago
  I fear you may be right…
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
R_D_Olivaw 9mo ago
Yes yes, shoot mothers in the face in her car. Grab human beings from their homes and detain them thousands of miles away with no due process. Send human beings to detention camps in another country NOT the one they are from Please, people, have some decency and maintain the nuance. We're not barbarians here! Sheesh.
- periodjet 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - oldjim798 9mo ago
    What nuance is missing? The above comment is a list of facts.
    - layer8 9mo ago
      Lists of facts don’t inherently constitute a nuanced take.
      - array_key_first 9mo ago
        Yes, but they do constitute an accurate one. The point here is that the people currently in charge hold 100% of the power, and they're misusing it. You don't have any power, nor do I, nor do the poor American citizens who may or may not be executed. They, the people in power, do not require your good will or help. They're already maxed out. They are already 100% legitimate and in control. While it might be nuanced to argue ICE as an institution is one which should exist, it's also just doing more harm.
  - ilogik 9mo ago
    Is there anything inaccurate in the above comment?
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - Refreeze5224 9mo ago
    Then stop hiding behind "nuance" and be more explicit about how you support what's going on. Everyone who disagrees with the ongoing blatant fascist police state activity do not lack nuance, they lack your ability to suppress empathy.
  - NemoNobody 9mo ago
    It's a slippery slope. ICE at one time was legitimate - their previous purpose had legitimacy... past tense. ICE will not exist at some point in the hopefully sooner future than later. No amount of nuance will change fundamental failure to success.
- mft_ 9mo ago
  I'm neutral here, but I think the person you're replying to already covered your points when they wrote > It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change.
  - ryan_lane 9mo ago
    That isn't written in good faith, though. It's a "both sides" argument that's clearly written from a particular side. > ICE has a clear and ethical mandate It doesn't, given the current administration. It's somewhat questionable in general, given that being in the country illegally isn't a felony (or criminal) in itself. We have local law enforcement that can handle cases of illegal actions, regardless of immigration status, and actual crimes can and do lead to deportation. The vast majority of people being targeted, via mandate, are not criminals. The mandate of the current administration also includes protestors, regardless of citizenship status. So, no, that person didn't cover the points, and your neutrality here is also written in a way that backs up that person, so that's also somewhat questionable.
insane_dreamer 9mo ago
Because the use of ICE and its actions has become so extreme that it can’t be simply “moderated”. The Trump Admin is pushing it to extreme action. So unless that is removed the only possible response is a strong reaction. ICE gutted its own nuance.
datsci_est_2015 9mo ago
Unfortunately while proselytizing about nuance, the side with the power and the guns is working overtime to make it so there is only one valid set of beliefs, and those beliefs are “American”. This is no longer a symmetric conflict of ideologies, I’m not sure what it’s going to take for people to realize this. A tidal wave of blue in the midterms I think is the only hope a lot of us have left. Maybe if that doesn’t come to fruition, either legitimately or illegitimately, despondent Russian literature will start to resonate much more strongly for us.
- schmuckonwheels 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - danorama 9mo ago
    Whoosh.
  - datsci_est_2015 9mo ago
    Heh, the “illegitimately” was in reference to it “[not coming] to fruition”, precisely in the immediately preceding clause of that sentence. In other words, I was saying that the reason for it not coming to fruition could be either legitimate or illegitimate. You assigned your own presumptions to what I said. Ironically the Democrats deserve much more benefit of the doubt when it comes to election fraud and interference given the glut of evidence of such on the other side of the aisle.
  - fyredge 9mo ago
    To others who read the comment above, we know that this administration has done many illegal actions. Lying about elections and causing an attack on the capitol, then further pardoning the attack is a blatant example of this. The comment above is frankly disingenuous and disguises blatant strawman fallacy with an air of moral superiority
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - 9mo ago
Altern4tiveAcc 9mo ago
> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate ... "We" (a lot of people, not everyone who posts here) don't believe that. Lots of people disagree with immigration control as a concept period. The existence of that app is an abomination; the fact tax payer money is being allocated to it is tragicomic. Not spending it and just giving it as tax returns to the population would be so much better than kidnapping people over being born in the wrong place.
- tick_tock_tick 9mo ago
  > ... "We" (a lot of people, not everyone who posts here) don't believe that. Lots of people disagree with immigration control as a concept period. I mean sure but you have to acknowledge that is an extremely fringe belief that basically no one in the USA supports. The debate is on "how" it's being done not that we shouldn't have immigration control.
  - senordevnyc 9mo ago
    Why is this being downvoted? The primary reason Trump was able to win is because Biden waited until it was far too late to address the surge of illegal immigration at the southern border. We don't have to wonder or argue about whether Americans support open borders, we already had something mildly in that direction (that still didn't remotely approach the idea of "no immigration control, period"), and in response Americans voted into office Donald Trump.
    - TitaRusell 9mo ago
      Not everyone believes this is about "the border" but rather a Christian conservative takeover of society. The immigrants are just an excuse for the fascist goons in the street.
      - inemesitaffia 9mo ago
        There are borders are imaginary and everyone should be able to move anywhere they want people on this post.
immibis 9mo ago
[flagged]
- juggerl3 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - immibis 9mo ago
    ...your argument is that H-tler wasn't actually that bad, he had a clear and ethical mandate but went about fulfilling it in the wrong ways? SMH.
tonymet 9mo ago
Sophisticated and nuanced opinions are an embellishment . A badge worn at cocktail parties . Cleaning up a mess is 1000x messier than making it . No one will ever care or remember your sophisticated opinion. That’s why it may be possible to have nuance but it’s just a peacocks feather
basch 9mo ago
nuance exists plenty it just doesnt float to the top. by definition, groupthink will get more upvotes than mishmashthink.
HumblyTossed 9mo ago
> particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. Even smart people are capable of hate.
csmpltn 9mo ago
[flagged]
falloutx 9mo ago
> believing that an immigration queue should exist and skipping it is immoral and should be illegal. Honestly, There is no queue for poor people, this is their only way, most of these people aren't even eligible for farm worker temp visa. US has created bureaucracy over the years in such a way that these people can never become legal. They are not skipping the line and taking some tech worker's spot or anything.
- juggerl3 9mo ago
  They're still illegal. You can and should defend yourself from poor strangers who view their circumstances as justification to infringe upon you. You can and should enforce your border.
  - therobots927 9mo ago
    How are they infringing on you specifically?
  - phgn 9mo ago
    Borders are an imaginary concept made-up by nation-states, which only serves the people in power. Or how are people fleeing from prosecution, looking for a better life, or just feeling like living somewhere else exactly hurting you? It's really a human right to move to another place, without reason required. If you're thinking about jobs, skilled workers immigrating will compete with you much more than less-privileged people. And "we cannot pay for them" is BS made up the system as well. It is possible to pay for social security for everyone, but not if all profits go to shareholders of course.
    - inemesitaffia 9mo ago
      >Imaginary People forgot this once Maduro was noped >It's really a human right to move to another place, without reason required Bhutan, Barcelona
  - falloutx 9mo ago
    You are benefitting more from illegals than they are "infringing" on you.
Atomic_Torrfisk 9mo ago
I blame infiltration by bots slowly shifting the Overton window. Did this site not get "weird" in the last few years? Not to think to highly of ourselves, I for one am a genuine idiot, but the crowed here likely has more influence than a lot of other online forums. Making it a worthwhile target, especially on the AI front. Plus the site is an easy to integrate into a bots with the minimal website and all.
- headsman771 9mo ago
  HN got a lot of refugees from Twitter and Reddit the past few years as well.
  - Atomic_Torrfisk 9mo ago
    If there is a hell on this planet it is Reddit. I don't blame them
dragonwriter 9mo ago
> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. Yes, that it is a set of things that it is possible one could believe. That is not an argument for it being a set of things that one ought to believe, as opposed to that ICE has a legal mandate that it isn't actually pursuing, and the mandate which it is pursuing is both intentionally murky, unethical to the extent that evidence suggests what it is, and also pursued by methods that are illegal and inhumane even irrespective of the bad ends that they are directed at. > It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be marked as intrinsically “illegal” while also believing that an immigration queue should exist and skipping it is immoral and should be illegal. Again, that it is certainly a set of things it is possible to believe, but it seems pretty silly to believe. A queue is at best an undesirable consequences of particular choices about how to manage concerns about quantitative levels of immigration and particular impacts those levels might have, not an ideal to be pursued. > Nuance is possible. “X is possible” is not an argument is that X is, factually or morally as appropriate to the shape of the proposition at issue, justified. And an extended argument that sets of beliefs are possible is something people only engage in when they recognize that they are unable to make the case that they are justified, but nevertheless want to suggest that people are bad for failing to adopt them.
- senordevnyc 9mo ago
  A queue is at best an undesirable consequences of particular choices about how to manage concerns about quantitative levels of immigration and particular impacts those levels might have, not an ideal to be pursued. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
  - vonunov 9mo ago
    "The queue is a thing that tends to happen when you're trying to design policy with the aim of limiting/regulating immigration to amounts that wouldn't be problematic or unmanageable in some way, but the queue itself shouldn't be a goal"
xiphias2 9mo ago
It's because there is extremism both on the left and right: the left thinks that the right wants a power grab to stop left from coming back, and the right thinks that if they don't keep their power now, the left will take it and keep it using immigrants. Both of them are right: unless there's a civil war or moderate president (which probably needs ranked choice voting) the most probable scenario is that one of the 2 extremes succeeds. I also miss the old HN btw and wish that there wouldn't be any right/left politics, just the old classic libertarian property/privacy/opennes right debates, but it looks like those days are gone.
- therobots927 9mo ago
  Yeah, remember when Biden deployed a personal army on red states and threatened to cancel the election? What world do you live in where you would expect equally extreme behavior from a democrat president?
  - xiphias2 9mo ago
    He didn't have to if he could just get Trump be thrown out of social media.
- hairofadog 9mo ago
  > the left thinks that the right wants a power grab to stop left from coming back It would probably help if Trump didn't fantasize about this publicly all the time > the right thinks that if they don't keep their power now, the left will take it and keep it using immigrants The left will "take it" by being elected, if they are in fact elected. That's the extremist threat the right is worried about? What does "keep it using immigrants" mean?
  - xiphias2 9mo ago
    It's quite simple, some states want to allow voting without identity cards that prove that they are citizens of the country. I don't know of any other country that would allow it, but I know other countries where people in power used other ,,tricks'' to increase the chance of being reelected
vitaflo 9mo ago
Companies have advertising to sell. Nuance doesn’t sell very well.
sleekest 9mo ago
Could it just be that people with views at each end of spectrum see posts this like as part of a battleground, and everyone else stays clear of battlegrounds?
bl_valance 9mo ago
Because people get blinded by dogmatic ideologies that chastise them for going against and/or questioning any position held by given side. It's all or nothing.
innagadadavida 9mo ago
I feel that the mob doesn't understand nuance and right now that mob is fighting for control for definitions of words and what is moral and ethical without giving you the freedom to choose for yourself and accepting it without malice. It's vicious and tiring and definitly not productive.
potsandpans 9mo ago
That's enough concern trolling out of you.
mmsimanga 9mo ago
Another nuance I would like to add, being an immigrant myself, not in the US. There should be more discussion about fixing the source of the migrants, the countries people are running away from. What is it that makes people leave their families behind and how can it be fixed. I know it isn't up to the US to fix other countries but it should be a point of nuanced discussion. We cannot all end up in the US.
greekrich92 9mo ago
ICE Was created by an illegitimate president who murdered a million people in Iraq under false pretenses. It has no ethical mandate.
- Paraesthetic 9mo ago
  Illegitimate, you're hilarious

smokel 9mo ago

The core issue is not that people cannot think with nuance, but that nuance is costly and poorly rewarded.

periodjet 9mo ago
I fear you may be right…
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

R_D_Olivaw 9mo ago

Yes yes, shoot mothers in the face in her car. Grab human beings from their homes and detain them thousands of miles away with no due process. Send human beings to detention camps in another country NOT the one they are from Please, people, have some decency and maintain the nuance. We're not barbarians here! Sheesh.

periodjet 9mo ago
[flagged]
- oldjim798 9mo ago
  What nuance is missing? The above comment is a list of facts.
  - layer8 9mo ago
    Lists of facts don’t inherently constitute a nuanced take.
    - array_key_first 9mo ago
      Yes, but they do constitute an accurate one. The point here is that the people currently in charge hold 100% of the power, and they're misusing it. You don't have any power, nor do I, nor do the poor American citizens who may or may not be executed. They, the people in power, do not require your good will or help. They're already maxed out. They are already 100% legitimate and in control. While it might be nuanced to argue ICE as an institution is one which should exist, it's also just doing more harm.
- ilogik 9mo ago
  Is there anything inaccurate in the above comment?
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- Refreeze5224 9mo ago
  Then stop hiding behind "nuance" and be more explicit about how you support what's going on. Everyone who disagrees with the ongoing blatant fascist police state activity do not lack nuance, they lack your ability to suppress empathy.
- NemoNobody 9mo ago
  It's a slippery slope. ICE at one time was legitimate - their previous purpose had legitimacy... past tense. ICE will not exist at some point in the hopefully sooner future than later. No amount of nuance will change fundamental failure to success.
mft_ 9mo ago
I'm neutral here, but I think the person you're replying to already covered your points when they wrote > It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change.
- ryan_lane 9mo ago
  That isn't written in good faith, though. It's a "both sides" argument that's clearly written from a particular side. > ICE has a clear and ethical mandate It doesn't, given the current administration. It's somewhat questionable in general, given that being in the country illegally isn't a felony (or criminal) in itself. We have local law enforcement that can handle cases of illegal actions, regardless of immigration status, and actual crimes can and do lead to deportation. The vast majority of people being targeted, via mandate, are not criminals. The mandate of the current administration also includes protestors, regardless of citizenship status. So, no, that person didn't cover the points, and your neutrality here is also written in a way that backs up that person, so that's also somewhat questionable.

insane_dreamer 9mo ago

Because the use of ICE and its actions has become so extreme that it can’t be simply “moderated”. The Trump Admin is pushing it to extreme action. So unless that is removed the only possible response is a strong reaction. ICE gutted its own nuance.

datsci_est_2015 9mo ago

Unfortunately while proselytizing about nuance, the side with the power and the guns is working overtime to make it so there is only one valid set of beliefs, and those beliefs are “American”. This is no longer a symmetric conflict of ideologies, I’m not sure what it’s going to take for people to realize this. A tidal wave of blue in the midterms I think is the only hope a lot of us have left. Maybe if that doesn’t come to fruition, either legitimately or illegitimately, despondent Russian literature will start to resonate much more strongly for us.

schmuckonwheels 9mo ago
[flagged]
- danorama 9mo ago
  Whoosh.
- datsci_est_2015 9mo ago
  Heh, the “illegitimately” was in reference to it “[not coming] to fruition”, precisely in the immediately preceding clause of that sentence. In other words, I was saying that the reason for it not coming to fruition could be either legitimate or illegitimate. You assigned your own presumptions to what I said. Ironically the Democrats deserve much more benefit of the doubt when it comes to election fraud and interference given the glut of evidence of such on the other side of the aisle.
- fyredge 9mo ago
  To others who read the comment above, we know that this administration has done many illegal actions. Lying about elections and causing an attack on the capitol, then further pardoning the attack is a blatant example of this. The comment above is frankly disingenuous and disguises blatant strawman fallacy with an air of moral superiority
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- 9mo ago

Altern4tiveAcc 9mo ago

> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate ... "We" (a lot of people, not everyone who posts here) don't believe that. Lots of people disagree with immigration control as a concept period. The existence of that app is an abomination; the fact tax payer money is being allocated to it is tragicomic. Not spending it and just giving it as tax returns to the population would be so much better than kidnapping people over being born in the wrong place.

tick_tock_tick 9mo ago
> ... "We" (a lot of people, not everyone who posts here) don't believe that. Lots of people disagree with immigration control as a concept period. I mean sure but you have to acknowledge that is an extremely fringe belief that basically no one in the USA supports. The debate is on "how" it's being done not that we shouldn't have immigration control.
- senordevnyc 9mo ago
  Why is this being downvoted? The primary reason Trump was able to win is because Biden waited until it was far too late to address the surge of illegal immigration at the southern border. We don't have to wonder or argue about whether Americans support open borders, we already had something mildly in that direction (that still didn't remotely approach the idea of "no immigration control, period"), and in response Americans voted into office Donald Trump.
  - TitaRusell 9mo ago
    Not everyone believes this is about "the border" but rather a Christian conservative takeover of society. The immigrants are just an excuse for the fascist goons in the street.
    - inemesitaffia 9mo ago
      There are borders are imaginary and everyone should be able to move anywhere they want people on this post.

immibis 9mo ago

[flagged]

juggerl3 9mo ago
[flagged]
- immibis 9mo ago
  ...your argument is that H-tler wasn't actually that bad, he had a clear and ethical mandate but went about fulfilling it in the wrong ways? SMH.

tonymet 9mo ago

Sophisticated and nuanced opinions are an embellishment . A badge worn at cocktail parties . Cleaning up a mess is 1000x messier than making it . No one will ever care or remember your sophisticated opinion. That’s why it may be possible to have nuance but it’s just a peacocks feather

basch 9mo ago

nuance exists plenty it just doesnt float to the top. by definition, groupthink will get more upvotes than mishmashthink.

HumblyTossed 9mo ago

> particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. Even smart people are capable of hate.

csmpltn 9mo ago

[flagged]

falloutx 9mo ago

> believing that an immigration queue should exist and skipping it is immoral and should be illegal. Honestly, There is no queue for poor people, this is their only way, most of these people aren't even eligible for farm worker temp visa. US has created bureaucracy over the years in such a way that these people can never become legal. They are not skipping the line and taking some tech worker's spot or anything.

juggerl3 9mo ago
They're still illegal. You can and should defend yourself from poor strangers who view their circumstances as justification to infringe upon you. You can and should enforce your border.
- therobots927 9mo ago
  How are they infringing on you specifically?
- phgn 9mo ago
  Borders are an imaginary concept made-up by nation-states, which only serves the people in power. Or how are people fleeing from prosecution, looking for a better life, or just feeling like living somewhere else exactly hurting you? It's really a human right to move to another place, without reason required. If you're thinking about jobs, skilled workers immigrating will compete with you much more than less-privileged people. And "we cannot pay for them" is BS made up the system as well. It is possible to pay for social security for everyone, but not if all profits go to shareholders of course.
  - inemesitaffia 9mo ago
    >Imaginary People forgot this once Maduro was noped >It's really a human right to move to another place, without reason required Bhutan, Barcelona
- falloutx 9mo ago
  You are benefitting more from illegals than they are "infringing" on you.

Atomic_Torrfisk 9mo ago

I blame infiltration by bots slowly shifting the Overton window. Did this site not get "weird" in the last few years? Not to think to highly of ourselves, I for one am a genuine idiot, but the crowed here likely has more influence than a lot of other online forums. Making it a worthwhile target, especially on the AI front. Plus the site is an easy to integrate into a bots with the minimal website and all.

headsman771 9mo ago
HN got a lot of refugees from Twitter and Reddit the past few years as well.
- Atomic_Torrfisk 9mo ago
  If there is a hell on this planet it is Reddit. I don't blame them

dragonwriter 9mo ago

> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. Yes, that it is a set of things that it is possible one could believe. That is not an argument for it being a set of things that one ought to believe, as opposed to that ICE has a legal mandate that it isn't actually pursuing, and the mandate which it is pursuing is both intentionally murky, unethical to the extent that evidence suggests what it is, and also pursued by methods that are illegal and inhumane even irrespective of the bad ends that they are directed at. > It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be marked as intrinsically “illegal” while also believing that an immigration queue should exist and skipping it is immoral and should be illegal. Again, that it is certainly a set of things it is possible to believe, but it seems pretty silly to believe. A queue is at best an undesirable consequences of particular choices about how to manage concerns about quantitative levels of immigration and particular impacts those levels might have, not an ideal to be pursued. > Nuance is possible. “X is possible” is not an argument is that X is, factually or morally as appropriate to the shape of the proposition at issue, justified. And an extended argument that sets of beliefs are possible is something people only engage in when they recognize that they are unable to make the case that they are justified, but nevertheless want to suggest that people are bad for failing to adopt them.

senordevnyc 9mo ago
A queue is at best an undesirable consequences of particular choices about how to manage concerns about quantitative levels of immigration and particular impacts those levels might have, not an ideal to be pursued. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
- vonunov 9mo ago
  "The queue is a thing that tends to happen when you're trying to design policy with the aim of limiting/regulating immigration to amounts that wouldn't be problematic or unmanageable in some way, but the queue itself shouldn't be a goal"

xiphias2 9mo ago

It's because there is extremism both on the left and right: the left thinks that the right wants a power grab to stop left from coming back, and the right thinks that if they don't keep their power now, the left will take it and keep it using immigrants. Both of them are right: unless there's a civil war or moderate president (which probably needs ranked choice voting) the most probable scenario is that one of the 2 extremes succeeds. I also miss the old HN btw and wish that there wouldn't be any right/left politics, just the old classic libertarian property/privacy/opennes right debates, but it looks like those days are gone.

therobots927 9mo ago
Yeah, remember when Biden deployed a personal army on red states and threatened to cancel the election? What world do you live in where you would expect equally extreme behavior from a democrat president?
- xiphias2 9mo ago
  He didn't have to if he could just get Trump be thrown out of social media.
hairofadog 9mo ago
> the left thinks that the right wants a power grab to stop left from coming back It would probably help if Trump didn't fantasize about this publicly all the time > the right thinks that if they don't keep their power now, the left will take it and keep it using immigrants The left will "take it" by being elected, if they are in fact elected. That's the extremist threat the right is worried about? What does "keep it using immigrants" mean?
- xiphias2 9mo ago
  It's quite simple, some states want to allow voting without identity cards that prove that they are citizens of the country. I don't know of any other country that would allow it, but I know other countries where people in power used other ,,tricks'' to increase the chance of being reelected

vitaflo 9mo ago

Companies have advertising to sell. Nuance doesn’t sell very well.

sleekest 9mo ago

Could it just be that people with views at each end of spectrum see posts this like as part of a battleground, and everyone else stays clear of battlegrounds?

bl_valance 9mo ago

Because people get blinded by dogmatic ideologies that chastise them for going against and/or questioning any position held by given side. It's all or nothing.

innagadadavida 9mo ago

I feel that the mob doesn't understand nuance and right now that mob is fighting for control for definitions of words and what is moral and ethical without giving you the freedom to choose for yourself and accepting it without malice. It's vicious and tiring and definitly not productive.

potsandpans 9mo ago

That's enough concern trolling out of you.

mmsimanga 9mo ago

Another nuance I would like to add, being an immigrant myself, not in the US. There should be more discussion about fixing the source of the migrants, the countries people are running away from. What is it that makes people leave their families behind and how can it be fixed. I know it isn't up to the US to fix other countries but it should be a point of nuanced discussion. We cannot all end up in the US.

greekrich92 9mo ago

ICE Was created by an illegitimate president who murdered a million people in Iraq under false pretenses. It has no ethical mandate.

Paraesthetic 9mo ago
Illegitimate, you're hilarious