3 ms·

I think US rapidly crossed from being a useful ally, through being an unreliable one to a genuine hindrance for NATO, from Europe's PoV. Not sure about Canada,

I think US rapidly crossed from being a useful ally, through being an unreliable one to a genuine hindrance for NATO, from Europe's PoV. Not sure about Canada, and I feel for them. I'm confident Europe can get its act together against Russia. It has more people, far more GDP etc. But it's stuck an an awful trance of defeatism. US meanwhile seems to be setting fire to so much of the world that they may soon be calling on allies to help them out. Ironic that the only NATO collective defense response was Europe joining the US in Afghanistan. Somehow Europeans care more about Greenland than Ukraine, so maybe this is the final straw.

fatbird 9mo ago
Europe has provided massive aid to Ukraine, mostly financial. Their hesitation has been committing themselves militarily to the war, which, if they did, would be a huge benefit to Ukraine. But their current level of support is still very substantial (and necessary). Greenland isn't important because it's Greenland, it's important because taking it shatters NATO. As an attack on Denmark it's actually less important than the deathblow to an alignment that has been foundational to the world order for the last 80 years. If the US takes Greenland, the whole international order breaks down, so yes, they're taking it very seriously.
- rich_sasha 9mo ago
  > Greenland [is] important because taking it shatters NATO. It's even more striking to me then that the Europeans would draw the line, rather than seek some kind of Trump appeasement. Standing up to Russia in Ukraine does not affect the credibility of NATO, but standing up to Trump does.
  - honzabe 9mo ago
    Striking? Why? Appeasement of aggressors has a terrible track record, both historically (Hitler, Putin) and specifically with Trump (TACO). Danish military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen argues, IMHO convincingly, that Europe should NOT try to appease Trump, but do the opposite - escalate to de-escalate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRsTDlqU8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRsTDlqU8I His reasoning is that Trump is a malignant narcissist, and malignant narcissists separate people into two categories: those perceived as strong, whom they admire (Putin, Xi), and weak, whom they abuse. Appeasement will only encourage further abuse. The only viable option is to show strength. As a European myself, I will support politicians with an uncompromising approach, no matter the cost.
qnpnpmqppnp 9mo ago
>Somehow Europeans care more about Greenland than Ukraine, so maybe this is the final straw. "Somehow" makes it sound like a strange situation, but it seems quite normal that the EU would care more about its own citizens than a foreign land, even if it is a close neighbor.
- rich_sasha 9mo ago
  I'm sure the Greenland Inuit people are very nice, I'd love to visit their country one day, and they don't deserve to be Trump's ego booster. My immediate instinct is that the average European has far more to do with an average Ukrainian than the average Greenlander. But that might not be right. I'm just surprised at the psychology here. I'm glad Europeans are veery slowly standing up to the new reality, be it through Greenland or Ukraine or anywhere else.
  - Dah00n 9mo ago
    >My immediate instinct is that the average European has far more to do with an average Ukrainian than the average Greenlander. There are fewer differences between a Dane and a Greenland Inuit than between a MAGA and a Democrat. Maybe you should visit?

fatbird 9mo ago

Europe has provided massive aid to Ukraine, mostly financial. Their hesitation has been committing themselves militarily to the war, which, if they did, would be a huge benefit to Ukraine. But their current level of support is still very substantial (and necessary). Greenland isn't important because it's Greenland, it's important because taking it shatters NATO. As an attack on Denmark it's actually less important than the deathblow to an alignment that has been foundational to the world order for the last 80 years. If the US takes Greenland, the whole international order breaks down, so yes, they're taking it very seriously.

rich_sasha 9mo ago
> Greenland [is] important because taking it shatters NATO. It's even more striking to me then that the Europeans would draw the line, rather than seek some kind of Trump appeasement. Standing up to Russia in Ukraine does not affect the credibility of NATO, but standing up to Trump does.
- honzabe 9mo ago
  Striking? Why? Appeasement of aggressors has a terrible track record, both historically (Hitler, Putin) and specifically with Trump (TACO). Danish military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen argues, IMHO convincingly, that Europe should NOT try to appease Trump, but do the opposite - escalate to de-escalate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRsTDlqU8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRsTDlqU8I His reasoning is that Trump is a malignant narcissist, and malignant narcissists separate people into two categories: those perceived as strong, whom they admire (Putin, Xi), and weak, whom they abuse. Appeasement will only encourage further abuse. The only viable option is to show strength. As a European myself, I will support politicians with an uncompromising approach, no matter the cost.

qnpnpmqppnp 9mo ago

>Somehow Europeans care more about Greenland than Ukraine, so maybe this is the final straw. "Somehow" makes it sound like a strange situation, but it seems quite normal that the EU would care more about its own citizens than a foreign land, even if it is a close neighbor.

rich_sasha 9mo ago
I'm sure the Greenland Inuit people are very nice, I'd love to visit their country one day, and they don't deserve to be Trump's ego booster. My immediate instinct is that the average European has far more to do with an average Ukrainian than the average Greenlander. But that might not be right. I'm just surprised at the psychology here. I'm glad Europeans are veery slowly standing up to the new reality, be it through Greenland or Ukraine or anywhere else.
- Dah00n 9mo ago
  >My immediate instinct is that the average European has far more to do with an average Ukrainian than the average Greenlander. There are fewer differences between a Dane and a Greenland Inuit than between a MAGA and a Democrat. Maybe you should visit?