4 ms·

No. It's when the web site doesn't say who it's for at all, that's when everybody struggles. And understandably so.

wat10000 10mo ago
People only struggle because of a self-centered view that everything is supposed to be for them, and things that aren't for them are a weird exception. A reasonable person will realize that the fact that they don't understand any of what it's talking about means they're not the target audience, and move on (or poke around out of curiosity).
- crazygringo 10mo ago
  It's self-centered to want to communicate well? It's just basic communications skills, and honestly decency, to describe what a thing is and who it's for. Maybe someone who isn't the target audience still wants to learn about the thing? Which this site provides no way of doing. That's the problem. Why choose to be inaccessible like that, when it's so easy to add a couple of works and links? > or poke around out of curiosity You mean like by following links that are supplied? Because that's my complaint: there are no links.
  - prmoustache 10mo ago
    > it's self-centered to want to communicate well? > > It's just basic communications skills, and honestly decency, to describe what a thing is and who it's for What is the main country where dying pubs is such a big subject? For f**ks sake I am not from UK yet it is easy to understand what it is all about from context and language. And I wasn't even aware of that tax change. Pure US arrogance.
    - crazygringo 10mo ago
      > What is the main country where dying pubs is such a big subject? How should I know? That's the point. It might as easily be Ireland for all I know. Or maybe pubs are dying in Boston or something? > For f*ks sake I am not from UK yet it is easy to understand what it is all about from context and language. I'm happy you're so smart. Not all of us are so lucky, I guess. > Pure US arrogance. Who said anything about the US? You know there are people from a lot of other countries who speak English too? If your concern is arrogance, it seems like it's your own that perhaps needs to be dialed back a little. Suggesting that communication can be clearer isn't a form of arrogance. To the contrary, it's something that comes out of empathy, identifying how communication could help more readers/listeners.
      - prmoustache 10mo ago
        > Who said anything about the US? I just read your account name.
        messe 10mo ago
        If they're not American, then following their own logic they probably shouldn't be heavily implying that they are. It's misleading. They should give context in each and every comment so that we know. Is it too much to ask for clear communication?
        crazygringo 10mo ago
        You know that in many parts of South America, most Europeans are considered just as gringo as Americans? As are Canadians, Australians, etc. If you're going to critique, you should probably try to get your facts right first.
  - wat10000 10mo ago
    It's not for you. It's self-centered to want others to communicate well to you when they aren't attempting to communicate with you in the first place. You want to learn about the thing? You have the entire internet at your fingertips. Click search bar, type "pub rates," boom, thousands of news stories. If you want to know what's going on, put in the bare minimum effort to find out. If you don't care then ignore it and move on.
    - crazygringo 10mo ago
      > It's self-centered to want others to communicate well to you when they aren't attempting to communicate with you in the first place. For private communication, of course. For public communication? On a .com? It's simple politeness, courtesy, and respect. It's about not wasting other people's time unnecessarily. It's just decency. I'm amazed that you can be arguing against basic decency and respect here.
      - wat10000 10mo ago
        Basic decency and respect is either ignoring it or putting in the three seconds of effort it takes to understand it, instead of complaining to someone who isn't even attempting to talk to you. Are you the sort of person who goes up to people in public and asks what they're talking about? Because that's what you're doing. Except you aren't even asking, you're just saying "if you're going to talk in public then you need to explain your topic so everyone can understand it." Your time isn't being wasted. It doesn't take any more time to think "I don't know what this is talking about, oh well" than it does to think "this mentions England and Wales, I guess it's about some local issue there." Unless you're so self-centered that the very idea of a web site's purpose not being immediately comprehensible to you personally is such an affront that you have to put in time to complain about it.
        crazygringo 10mo ago
        This is just about elementary communication skills. You're arguing that obfuscation is somehow a good thing. How does that make any sense? When people communicate clearly, it makes the world a better place. People understand each other more easily. They don't have to waste as much time figuring things out. It's the golden rule, treating others the way you'd like to be treated. If you don't understand that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you.
  - retsibsi 10mo ago
    > Maybe someone who isn't the target audience still wants to learn about the thing This is fair enough, but they don't make it too hard -- there's an About page, where the first line mentions England and Wales and the rest of the page makes it clear that the issue is about rate increases. Googling something like "england pub rate increases" will get you the rest of the way if you're interested. (I think us non-Americans sometimes go a bit far with the whole "finally you're tasting some of your own medicine, Yanks!" thing, and I'm sorry some people are being aggressive. But I don't think this site is as opaque as you're suggesting, nor that it makes any more assumptions about its audience than lots of US-based sites do. They're targeting locals, and I think it's fine for a home page to start talking to its intended audience immediately rather than wasting space on an introduction for outsiders.)
ikr678 10mo ago
Except that as a english speaking non american, this happens literally all the time with ecommerce? It's not until I get to checkout I realise they do not ship to my country or want to deal with me.
- crazygringo 10mo ago
  International shipping is an entirely different subject. You can assume that .com is American unless otherwise indicated, and that you'll need to check shipping policies. Just like as an American, when I go to a .co.uk ecommerce site, I have to check whether they ship to the US.
  - prmoustache 10mo ago
    > You can assume that .com is American unless otherwise Why?
    - crazygringo 10mo ago
      Because the internet was invented in America so it's the only country where a country suffix was never used from the start of its popularity. I'm not saying this is good or bad or justified or not, just saying what the conventions are.
      - prmoustache 10mo ago
        But there have never been a convention that .com was reserved to the US market. co.uk, com.au, com.mx, com.my and co.jp exist for example, but I have never heard of a co.fr, com.it or co.de or org.dk Bottom line: there is no real convention
      - austinjp 10mo ago
        Honestly, unless you're going to say you're confused about .net and .io TLDs this comes across as willfully weaponised naivety.
      - keybored 10mo ago
OJFord 10mo ago
Remember that every time you read 'national' today and it means 'US'.
dorian-graph 10mo ago
> .. that's when everybody struggles. That's not true though, is it?
demarq 10mo ago
This is fascinating. How does "pub" not immediately scream British? When I read stories I feel I can pick out US and UK instantly: > Everyone is freaking out about ... - American > ... has been Sacked from - British > They negotiated a total sum of ... - British > The ... is totally insane - American
- retsibsi 10mo ago
  > How does "pub" not immediately scream British? Maybe it screams "not American", but the rest of the Commonwealth does exist, you know. Some of us are standing right here.

People only struggle because of a self-centered view that everything is supposed to be for them, and things that aren't for them are a weird exception. A reasonable person will realize that the fact that they don't understand any of what it's talking about means they're not the target audience, and move on (or poke around out of curiosity).

crazygringo 10mo ago
It's self-centered to want to communicate well? It's just basic communications skills, and honestly decency, to describe what a thing is and who it's for. Maybe someone who isn't the target audience still wants to learn about the thing? Which this site provides no way of doing. That's the problem. Why choose to be inaccessible like that, when it's so easy to add a couple of works and links? > or poke around out of curiosity You mean like by following links that are supplied? Because that's my complaint: there are no links.
- prmoustache 10mo ago
  > it's self-centered to want to communicate well? > > It's just basic communications skills, and honestly decency, to describe what a thing is and who it's for What is the main country where dying pubs is such a big subject? For f**ks sake I am not from UK yet it is easy to understand what it is all about from context and language. And I wasn't even aware of that tax change. Pure US arrogance.
  - crazygringo 10mo ago
    > What is the main country where dying pubs is such a big subject? How should I know? That's the point. It might as easily be Ireland for all I know. Or maybe pubs are dying in Boston or something? > For f*ks sake I am not from UK yet it is easy to understand what it is all about from context and language. I'm happy you're so smart. Not all of us are so lucky, I guess. > Pure US arrogance. Who said anything about the US? You know there are people from a lot of other countries who speak English too? If your concern is arrogance, it seems like it's your own that perhaps needs to be dialed back a little. Suggesting that communication can be clearer isn't a form of arrogance. To the contrary, it's something that comes out of empathy, identifying how communication could help more readers/listeners.
    - prmoustache 10mo ago
      > Who said anything about the US? I just read your account name.
      - messe 10mo ago
        If they're not American, then following their own logic they probably shouldn't be heavily implying that they are. It's misleading. They should give context in each and every comment so that we know. Is it too much to ask for clear communication?
        crazygringo 10mo ago
        You know that in many parts of South America, most Europeans are considered just as gringo as Americans? As are Canadians, Australians, etc. If you're going to critique, you should probably try to get your facts right first.
- wat10000 10mo ago
  It's not for you. It's self-centered to want others to communicate well to you when they aren't attempting to communicate with you in the first place. You want to learn about the thing? You have the entire internet at your fingertips. Click search bar, type "pub rates," boom, thousands of news stories. If you want to know what's going on, put in the bare minimum effort to find out. If you don't care then ignore it and move on.
  - crazygringo 10mo ago
    > It's self-centered to want others to communicate well to you when they aren't attempting to communicate with you in the first place. For private communication, of course. For public communication? On a .com? It's simple politeness, courtesy, and respect. It's about not wasting other people's time unnecessarily. It's just decency. I'm amazed that you can be arguing against basic decency and respect here.
    - wat10000 10mo ago
      Basic decency and respect is either ignoring it or putting in the three seconds of effort it takes to understand it, instead of complaining to someone who isn't even attempting to talk to you. Are you the sort of person who goes up to people in public and asks what they're talking about? Because that's what you're doing. Except you aren't even asking, you're just saying "if you're going to talk in public then you need to explain your topic so everyone can understand it." Your time isn't being wasted. It doesn't take any more time to think "I don't know what this is talking about, oh well" than it does to think "this mentions England and Wales, I guess it's about some local issue there." Unless you're so self-centered that the very idea of a web site's purpose not being immediately comprehensible to you personally is such an affront that you have to put in time to complain about it.
      - crazygringo 10mo ago
        This is just about elementary communication skills. You're arguing that obfuscation is somehow a good thing. How does that make any sense? When people communicate clearly, it makes the world a better place. People understand each other more easily. They don't have to waste as much time figuring things out. It's the golden rule, treating others the way you'd like to be treated. If you don't understand that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you.
- retsibsi 10mo ago
  > Maybe someone who isn't the target audience still wants to learn about the thing This is fair enough, but they don't make it too hard -- there's an About page, where the first line mentions England and Wales and the rest of the page makes it clear that the issue is about rate increases. Googling something like "england pub rate increases" will get you the rest of the way if you're interested. (I think us non-Americans sometimes go a bit far with the whole "finally you're tasting some of your own medicine, Yanks!" thing, and I'm sorry some people are being aggressive. But I don't think this site is as opaque as you're suggesting, nor that it makes any more assumptions about its audience than lots of US-based sites do. They're targeting locals, and I think it's fine for a home page to start talking to its intended audience immediately rather than wasting space on an introduction for outsiders.)

ikr678 10mo ago

Except that as a english speaking non american, this happens literally all the time with ecommerce? It's not until I get to checkout I realise they do not ship to my country or want to deal with me.

crazygringo 10mo ago
International shipping is an entirely different subject. You can assume that .com is American unless otherwise indicated, and that you'll need to check shipping policies. Just like as an American, when I go to a .co.uk ecommerce site, I have to check whether they ship to the US.
- prmoustache 10mo ago
  > You can assume that .com is American unless otherwise Why?
  - crazygringo 10mo ago
    Because the internet was invented in America so it's the only country where a country suffix was never used from the start of its popularity. I'm not saying this is good or bad or justified or not, just saying what the conventions are.
    - prmoustache 10mo ago
      But there have never been a convention that .com was reserved to the US market. co.uk, com.au, com.mx, com.my and co.jp exist for example, but I have never heard of a co.fr, com.it or co.de or org.dk Bottom line: there is no real convention
    - austinjp 10mo ago
      Honestly, unless you're going to say you're confused about .net and .io TLDs this comes across as willfully weaponised naivety.
    - keybored 10mo ago

OJFord 10mo ago

Remember that every time you read 'national' today and it means 'US'.

dorian-graph 10mo ago

> .. that's when everybody struggles. That's not true though, is it?

demarq 10mo ago

This is fascinating. How does "pub" not immediately scream British? When I read stories I feel I can pick out US and UK instantly: > Everyone is freaking out about ... - American > ... has been Sacked from - British > They negotiated a total sum of ... - British > The ... is totally insane - American

retsibsi 10mo ago
> How does "pub" not immediately scream British? Maybe it screams "not American", but the rest of the Commonwealth does exist, you know. Some of us are standing right here.