4 ms·

"America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasin

by geebee 14y ago

"America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasing the supply." I mean artificially increasing the supply relative to other professions. If we "staple a green card to every STEM degree" but not other degrees, we will increase the supply of STEM workers relative to lawyers, MBAs, finance majors, and so forth. And trust me, those guys bill more than $100 an hour. Those guys will make that "ridiculous" rate look very reasonable. I would actually support a specific emphasis on STEM workers if there were evidence of a shortage, but there isn't. Like you, I know people doing pretty well, but that's not going to override the conclusions of a careful study by the RAND institute, or other surveys that show that wages are not increasing anywhere the rate you'd expect. Just to be clear - I am not opposed to general immigration or skilled immigration. Immigrants will come to the US, many will be skilled, and some of the skilled will be skilled in STEM fields. However, I'd need to see more evidence of a shortage before I'd support specifically tinkering with the immigration system to get a higher percentage of STEM workers relative to other types of skilled workers.

akiselev 14y ago
Just as a side note: the green card is by no means stapled. It's an immensely difficult upward battle, with an emotional and financial expense the likes of which most domestic workers never go through. The H1-B is not selective for a specific set of professions per se, it's selective for professions requiring expertise and at least a bachelors degree. Official USCIS requirements: "-Bachelor’s or higher degree or its equivalent is normally the minimum entry requirement for the position The degree requirement for the job is common to the industry or the job is so complex or unique that it can be performed only by an individual with a degree -The employer normally requires a degree or its equivalent for the position -The nature of the specific duties is so specialized and complex that the knowledge required to perform the duties is usually associated with the attainment of a bachelor’s or higher degree." [1] This begs the argument about allowing in only educated immigrants vs everyone which is a dangerous emotional slippery slope so I won't get into it. For the purposes of the H1-B, pretty much any position even remotely requiring an education can qualify so it's not artificially increasing the supply of one over another. It's just that few companies need foreign MBAs or lawyers in America (as domestic employees) and other professions such as doctors require American certification before becoming eligible. As for the shortage, the data shows that there is none (or at least I have no statistical evidence otherwise). However, when it comes to excellence, there is a huge difference between a mediocre engineer (or lawyer, doctor, w.e) and a great one. The reason Russians, Germans, Jews, etc. have been so prevalent in science in the US is because the best from these countries get to actually immigrate here. (Not totally true but close enough). Americans don't need to compete on wage, they need to compete on competency and that's like asking a community college class to compete with a class from MIT. There will be geniuses in the CC class more often than not but MIT selects for genius (or grades) and will have a higher concentration. This is one reason why we have quotas in the first place (part of the historically rooted fear of foreigners in throughout US history). Edit: [1] http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=73566811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=73566811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b... Edit2: To clarify the above comment about competing based on competency, I'm talking mostly about legitimate uses of the H1-B. There is obviously cases of abuse, but from my experience I think those are in the minority.
- geebee 14y ago
  I was referring to proposals to "staple a green card" to STEM degrees (currently in the Senate), not the current reality which I will agree is very daunting. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/opinion/visas-for-scientists-with-a-catch.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/opinion/visas-for-scientis... In spite of my misgivings about what I think is a contrived shortage, I would support this legislation, mainly because I think it is extremely destructive to kick out highly educated people who have studied at US universities, and I'd much rather see green cards than visas that I think are indentured in nature. It does frustrate me, though, to see this happening only in science and engineering. Why STEM? Why not law, or medicine, or even trades like plumbing? I just paid $100 an hour for a plumber (and want to be sure I'm not perceived as complaining, plumbers are skilled workers who deserve good compensation). I think it failed more because of political bickering than anything else.
  - intended 14y ago
    I can at least speak about law - this link showed up on HN a few days ago - Suicide prices and the coming crisis at big law firms. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/suicide-prices-the-coming-crisis-at-big-law-firms/ http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/suicide-prices-the-comi... Law firms have been in crisis for at least several years from what I know. I even remember having to go through a prospectus for a legal services outsourcing firm at work a while back. Finance - I know for a fact that post 2008 a large number of firms went bust, and the recession was brutal - lots of people returned to their home countries after finding no work. And it was the financial sector that added to the STEM shortage by hoovering up those students. Science and Math types that can demonstrate good math and organizational ability are the ideal rank and file for Financial modeling and its related task set. On top of that there is no shortage of natural finance types either. S0 those two sections of the economy are almost overstaffed, and one of those sections is dying. With regards to plumbing - thats a guild oriented job and aside from the usual complaints about collusion and what not, its also expensive because its likely not that attractive. I think of all the reasons, STEM poaching by other industries was probably one of the larger issues which should be reduced now. Still, your system is strongly aimed at attracting and retaining the best talent in the world. The issues people are complaining about are because they feel job searches have become a zero sum game - the presence of a competitor reduces the size of the pie for everyone. The solution is to make more pies, but that is beyond my ability to detail out.
intended 14y ago
For STEM workers - the only reason to argue against it, has a single kernel: There aren't enough jobs. For that matter, getting the smartest STEM majors into your country, and working on new technologies could create new jobs and opportunities.
- akiselev 14y ago
  Although I totally agree with this sentiment, I think it too is a bit short sighted. In manufacturing at least, the big technological drive (which we have seen in the last half decade) is towards flexible, low cost automation which fixes the problems of existing automation (extreme R&D and capital cost and total inflexibility). While lowering the barriers for getting things onto the market (which can be done just by reclaiming the manufacturing base taken by China), it will almost surely destroy the manufacturing based working class (which is about a tenth of the US's GDP).

by geebee 14y ago

akiselev 14y ago

Just as a side note: the green card is by no means stapled. It's an immensely difficult upward battle, with an emotional and financial expense the likes of which most domestic workers never go through. The H1-B is not selective for a specific set of professions per se, it's selective for professions requiring expertise and at least a bachelors degree. Official USCIS requirements: "-Bachelor’s or higher degree or its equivalent is normally the minimum entry requirement for the position The degree requirement for the job is common to the industry or the job is so complex or unique that it can be performed only by an individual with a degree -The employer normally requires a degree or its equivalent for the position -The nature of the specific duties is so specialized and complex that the knowledge required to perform the duties is usually associated with the attainment of a bachelor’s or higher degree." [1] This begs the argument about allowing in only educated immigrants vs everyone which is a dangerous emotional slippery slope so I won't get into it. For the purposes of the H1-B, pretty much any position even remotely requiring an education can qualify so it's not artificially increasing the supply of one over another. It's just that few companies need foreign MBAs or lawyers in America (as domestic employees) and other professions such as doctors require American certification before becoming eligible. As for the shortage, the data shows that there is none (or at least I have no statistical evidence otherwise). However, when it comes to excellence, there is a huge difference between a mediocre engineer (or lawyer, doctor, w.e) and a great one. The reason Russians, Germans, Jews, etc. have been so prevalent in science in the US is because the best from these countries get to actually immigrate here. (Not totally true but close enough). Americans don't need to compete on wage, they need to compete on competency and that's like asking a community college class to compete with a class from MIT. There will be geniuses in the CC class more often than not but MIT selects for genius (or grades) and will have a higher concentration. This is one reason why we have quotas in the first place (part of the historically rooted fear of foreigners in throughout US history). Edit: [1] http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=73566811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=73566811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b... Edit2: To clarify the above comment about competing based on competency, I'm talking mostly about legitimate uses of the H1-B. There is obviously cases of abuse, but from my experience I think those are in the minority.

geebee 14y ago
I was referring to proposals to "staple a green card" to STEM degrees (currently in the Senate), not the current reality which I will agree is very daunting. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/opinion/visas-for-scientists-with-a-catch.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/opinion/visas-for-scientis... In spite of my misgivings about what I think is a contrived shortage, I would support this legislation, mainly because I think it is extremely destructive to kick out highly educated people who have studied at US universities, and I'd much rather see green cards than visas that I think are indentured in nature. It does frustrate me, though, to see this happening only in science and engineering. Why STEM? Why not law, or medicine, or even trades like plumbing? I just paid $100 an hour for a plumber (and want to be sure I'm not perceived as complaining, plumbers are skilled workers who deserve good compensation). I think it failed more because of political bickering than anything else.
- intended 14y ago
  I can at least speak about law - this link showed up on HN a few days ago - Suicide prices and the coming crisis at big law firms. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/suicide-prices-the-coming-crisis-at-big-law-firms/ http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/suicide-prices-the-comi... Law firms have been in crisis for at least several years from what I know. I even remember having to go through a prospectus for a legal services outsourcing firm at work a while back. Finance - I know for a fact that post 2008 a large number of firms went bust, and the recession was brutal - lots of people returned to their home countries after finding no work. And it was the financial sector that added to the STEM shortage by hoovering up those students. Science and Math types that can demonstrate good math and organizational ability are the ideal rank and file for Financial modeling and its related task set. On top of that there is no shortage of natural finance types either. S0 those two sections of the economy are almost overstaffed, and one of those sections is dying. With regards to plumbing - thats a guild oriented job and aside from the usual complaints about collusion and what not, its also expensive because its likely not that attractive. I think of all the reasons, STEM poaching by other industries was probably one of the larger issues which should be reduced now. Still, your system is strongly aimed at attracting and retaining the best talent in the world. The issues people are complaining about are because they feel job searches have become a zero sum game - the presence of a competitor reduces the size of the pie for everyone. The solution is to make more pies, but that is beyond my ability to detail out.

intended 14y ago

For STEM workers - the only reason to argue against it, has a single kernel: There aren't enough jobs. For that matter, getting the smartest STEM majors into your country, and working on new technologies could create new jobs and opportunities.

akiselev 14y ago
Although I totally agree with this sentiment, I think it too is a bit short sighted. In manufacturing at least, the big technological drive (which we have seen in the last half decade) is towards flexible, low cost automation which fixes the problems of existing automation (extreme R&D and capital cost and total inflexibility). While lowering the barriers for getting things onto the market (which can be done just by reclaiming the manufacturing base taken by China), it will almost surely destroy the manufacturing based working class (which is about a tenth of the US's GDP).