4 ms·

Berlin is a great place to observe policies with good intentions, yet negative second-order effects. Distributing free potatoes will likely cause waste somewhe

Berlin is a great place to observe policies with good intentions, yet negative second-order effects. Distributing free potatoes will likely cause waste somewhere else, as e.g. people will buy less potatoes in supermarkets. The waste just becomes less visible as supermarkets dispose of food every day. Another current exhibit is the prohibition of using salt for removing snow and ice from the pavements because it's "bad for plants and the ground water". While that is true to some degree, the Berlin policy conveniently ignores all second-order effects: Sidewalks are more slippery, more people get hurt. I see people slipping on snow-compacted ice almost every day. How many trees have to be saved to make it worthwhile for more people breaking their bones? You can apply for an exemption though, e.g. if you plan to use salt on a driveway to a hospital. Processing fees for such an exemption are up to 1.4k€ [1]. The rent cap is another one. But let's go there another day.. [1] https://www.berlin.de/umwelt/themen/natur-pflanzen-artenschutz/artikel.164455.php https://www.berlin.de/umwelt/themen/natur-pflanzen-artenschu...

palmotea 9mo ago
> Another current exhibit is the prohibition of using salt for removing snow and ice from the pavements because it's "bad for plants and the ground water". While that is true to some degree, the Berlin policy conveniently ignores all second-order effects: Sidewalks are more slippery, more people get hurt. Rigorously considering second-order (and greater) effects is a massive undertaking, though. Like: how do you even know how many more people will slip and get hurt without salting sidewalks and how much the damage the salt does to "plants and ground water," without many careful and expensive research projects? And then there's the challenge of weighing such completely disparate things: how many injuries are healthier plants worth? Basically is seems easier said than done.
- Xylakant 9mo ago
  The problem is not salting or not - the problem is that the house owners are liable for cleaning the sidewalk and they all outsourced it to the same companies. And the companies unsurprisingly all fail to deliver on their obligations because they take on way more customers they could possibly handle. The result is as expected - nothing gets done. A shovel and broom, maybe some grit would have been enough. But there’s no shred of enforcement and instead of calling for enforcement, politicians now call for relaxing the rules on salting.
  - tharkun__ 9mo ago
    Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible? Works elsewhere, why not in Germany, where taxes should actually be even better able to cover it? [yes I know people in Germany, even specifically in Berlin and no this is not a Berlin specific thing] Like where I live, the city also says not to use salt whenever you can and use alternatives and they themselves do not salt the roads in our town either, except for the major in and out ones. This is Canada btw. so we do get a load of snow and ice. They use grit and in spring the city sends through a grit cleaning crew (for reuse next winter). Except for the parts that make it onto lawns from snow plows pushing it onto your property. There it's your job i.e. some people put down mats in fall or they use brushes to get it out of the lawn and back onto the street where it can be picked up. Just yesterday, it was above freezing and the city snow plows went and used the warmer weather to scrape lots of ice off the road!
    - Xylakant 9mo ago
      Funny that you would propose such a practical and simple solution. This has been proposed by the Green Party in Berlin and I’m surprised you didn’t hear the wailing choir of house owners across the Atlantic. “Too impractical”, “too costly”, “who would pay for that?”. Thing is, the current system works well for all people except the ones that want to walk on the icy pavement. Politicians aren’t responsible. House owners shed the responsibility to a contractor. Many contractors regard this essentially as largely free money and just weigh the cost of a potential lawsuit against the accumulated income. It’s extremely good at diluting the responsibility so that no affected individual can effectively do anything about it. Why change a system that works so well for all of the people except the ones affected by the outcome?
      - tharkun__ 9mo ago
        Funny indeed. Now that you mention it, I can "hear" the complaining voices in my mind, yes :) So very German of them too! Funny you mention cost. This year our town actually did not contract out the snow clearing of the roadways to a contractor like they've done for decades past, because it became too expensive (or rather the percentage increase I believe was the trigger). So instead the city is now doing the snow clearing themselves! I would call this very good stewardship of our property tax payments, which is what pays for that. Just now instead of going to greedy contractors (let's face it, most of that money isn't going to the people actually doing the snow clearing) and instead it will go towards paying the salaries of actual city employees (not sure how many temporary) and I guess equipment cost. Most people here also get a local contractor or in our case it's usually one of the farms around the area, that offer snow clearing of your driveway. Both the actual driveway, which around here can be quite large, and for clearing the large amounts of snow and ice left across your driveway by the city plows clearing the roads. Essentially tractors with snow blower attachments on the back PTO. Like this: https://www.deere.ca/assets/images/region-4/products/attachments/attachments-and-implements/utiilty-tractor-attachments-accessories/frontier-snow-removal-hero-449401.jpg https://www.deere.ca/assets/images/region-4/products/attachm...
card_zero 9mo ago
> How many trees have to be saved to make it worthwhile for more people breaking their bones? That has a specific answer, like "twenty". But calculating it would be a hopeless task.
BeetleB 9mo ago
> While that is true to some degree, the Berlin policy conveniently ignores all second-order effects: Sidewalks are more slippery, more people get hurt I seriously doubt they did not know that. The whole point of salt is to prevent people from falling. Of course they knew more people will fall.
bigbluesax 9mo ago
Is the concept of someone who usually doesn't eat potatoes getting a bag and spending the next week making some potato dishes really that inconceivable? I don't doubt that this will lead to some waste - I've thrown out more half empty potato bags than I would like to admit - but that's a very negative outlook. Also how do you choose between negative second order effects? Salting roads creates negative effects for groundwater and plants which are really hard to mitigate. On the other hand the second order effect of people slipping could at least be dealt with on an individual level by putting spikes on your shoes.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
  > how do you choose between negative second order effects? First off you have to identify them. Until you frame the costs and benefits of salting, it isn't clear that the real question is how can we improve pedestrian and vehicular traction without poisoning our plants and water supply. (I'd argue it's frequent ploughing, gravelling and dynamic signs for signalling when chains/snowies/AWD are required.)
literalAardvark 9mo ago
You could always just clean the snow instead of salting it. It's not rocket science.
- bddbbd 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
    > are you suggesting to use a mop when it rains to clean the water before it freezes Wyoming here. We don't generally salt our roads. Instead, a combination of ploughs (to clear it) and gravel (to increase traction) are used. More broadly: if you're "astonished with some people not having a grasp," consider that astonishment signals encountering something new.
  - mindslight 9mo ago
    The gall to complain about "not having a grasp on reality" while writing hypersimplistic reactionary comments. The evidence for Dead Internet Theory grows by the day. With properly graded streets and sidewalks, liquid water runs off. When the bulk of snow is cleared, the small bits that remain melt, flow off, and/or evaporate during melting days. I can't comment on the specific climate of Berlin, but it certainly doesn't seem poised to be an arctic encampment.
- bmulholland 9mo ago
  Most Berlin sidewalks are uneven cobblestone, not a flat uniform concrete, so the cleaning is probably a lot more difficult than you're envisioning :)
  - Xylakant 9mo ago
    The neighbors snow response contractor had an electric brush on a broom handle, that looked pretty nifty and took like 15 minutes for the whole front to be spotless clean. Then they added a bit of grit, done. The contractor for our block didn’t even show up. Not sure allowing salt would have changed anything.
bryanrasmussen 9mo ago
I mean it sounds sort of if you know what the second order effect of damage to plants and ground water will be if people salt their driveways? I would think you sort of need to run the test in production to see which way is more beneficial.
yunohn 9mo ago
Surely if you can consider the second order effects of giving away these extra potatoes for free, then you can also consider the second order effects of not giving them away? And maybe even thinking more about it, consider that they may be going to different markets/people/causes? Given this example is about 1T batches of potatoes, it could be used by a business that depends on cheap potatoes like a food kitchen, or a business that can absorb the input surge and convert it into a product that can be stored longer term like frozen foods.
marc_g 9mo ago
As someone who just went outside to buy groceries in Berlin and watched them salt the road on my way to Kaufland, I am confused. Is it just for sidewalks?
- yorwba 9mo ago
  Are you sure they weren't using sand or gravel instead?
  - marc_g 9mo ago
    Hmm, I mean it was a lot of white stuff coming out. Again, on the street, so maybe it's different rules compared to sidewalks. Possibly sand, but I'm pretty sure it's salt. EDIT: Seems that some roads are allowed to be salted! It's a pretty main thoroughfare, so likely the case. https://www.bsr.de/bsr-winterdienst-gut-geruestet-fuer-die-kalte-jahreszeit https://www.bsr.de/bsr-winterdienst-gut-geruestet-fuer-die-k...
- olieidel 9mo ago
  Roads are salted, everything else is not.
blell 9mo ago
>How many trees have to be saved to make it worthwhile for more people breaking their bones? The **** is a death cult. They are very very happy to see you become an invalid if it avoids the death of a sapling. I know that this sounds hyperbolic to the point of being derisive, but it's the observable truth.
- OKRainbowKid 9mo ago
  Who specifically are you talking about?
Voultapher 9mo ago
Salting your ground water is also a second-order effect. The way you put that statement into quotes shows that you value human well being over everything else. Personally I don't. Life on earth is a co-op and we don't win by being the last ones standing, as we are desperately trying right now.
- NedF 9mo ago
  [dead]
- tmp10423288442 9mo ago
  When I hear people like you, I pray that natural selection will remove people like you from the population faster than mutations create them.
  - pfannkuchen 9mo ago
    It isn’t genetic, it’s moral programming.
  - rootsudo 9mo ago
    Wouldn't natural selection rewrd that behavior more?
- fatata123 9mo ago
  [dead]
NedF 9mo ago
[dead]
port11 9mo ago
The ban on salt isn’t silly, for a long time pebbles were good enough to prevent black ice, and perhaps even more effective than ice. Donating potatoes that were about to go to waste might cause waste elsewhere, but what you propose is that we never give food away unless we can be absolutely sure it won’t cause waste in another sub-system. That’s a tall order. These potatoes were going to be waste anyway.
dietr1ch 9mo ago
Good point on the second order concern, but I'd get potatoes and keep non-perishable food for later. Assuming the exact same weight or available caloric intake will be wasted is too simplistic.

palmotea 9mo ago

> Another current exhibit is the prohibition of using salt for removing snow and ice from the pavements because it's "bad for plants and the ground water". While that is true to some degree, the Berlin policy conveniently ignores all second-order effects: Sidewalks are more slippery, more people get hurt. Rigorously considering second-order (and greater) effects is a massive undertaking, though. Like: how do you even know how many more people will slip and get hurt without salting sidewalks and how much the damage the salt does to "plants and ground water," without many careful and expensive research projects? And then there's the challenge of weighing such completely disparate things: how many injuries are healthier plants worth? Basically is seems easier said than done.

Xylakant 9mo ago
The problem is not salting or not - the problem is that the house owners are liable for cleaning the sidewalk and they all outsourced it to the same companies. And the companies unsurprisingly all fail to deliver on their obligations because they take on way more customers they could possibly handle. The result is as expected - nothing gets done. A shovel and broom, maybe some grit would have been enough. But there’s no shred of enforcement and instead of calling for enforcement, politicians now call for relaxing the rules on salting.
- tharkun__ 9mo ago
  Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible? Works elsewhere, why not in Germany, where taxes should actually be even better able to cover it? [yes I know people in Germany, even specifically in Berlin and no this is not a Berlin specific thing] Like where I live, the city also says not to use salt whenever you can and use alternatives and they themselves do not salt the roads in our town either, except for the major in and out ones. This is Canada btw. so we do get a load of snow and ice. They use grit and in spring the city sends through a grit cleaning crew (for reuse next winter). Except for the parts that make it onto lawns from snow plows pushing it onto your property. There it's your job i.e. some people put down mats in fall or they use brushes to get it out of the lawn and back onto the street where it can be picked up. Just yesterday, it was above freezing and the city snow plows went and used the warmer weather to scrape lots of ice off the road!
  - Xylakant 9mo ago
    Funny that you would propose such a practical and simple solution. This has been proposed by the Green Party in Berlin and I’m surprised you didn’t hear the wailing choir of house owners across the Atlantic. “Too impractical”, “too costly”, “who would pay for that?”. Thing is, the current system works well for all people except the ones that want to walk on the icy pavement. Politicians aren’t responsible. House owners shed the responsibility to a contractor. Many contractors regard this essentially as largely free money and just weigh the cost of a potential lawsuit against the accumulated income. It’s extremely good at diluting the responsibility so that no affected individual can effectively do anything about it. Why change a system that works so well for all of the people except the ones affected by the outcome?
    - tharkun__ 9mo ago
      Funny indeed. Now that you mention it, I can "hear" the complaining voices in my mind, yes :) So very German of them too! Funny you mention cost. This year our town actually did not contract out the snow clearing of the roadways to a contractor like they've done for decades past, because it became too expensive (or rather the percentage increase I believe was the trigger). So instead the city is now doing the snow clearing themselves! I would call this very good stewardship of our property tax payments, which is what pays for that. Just now instead of going to greedy contractors (let's face it, most of that money isn't going to the people actually doing the snow clearing) and instead it will go towards paying the salaries of actual city employees (not sure how many temporary) and I guess equipment cost. Most people here also get a local contractor or in our case it's usually one of the farms around the area, that offer snow clearing of your driveway. Both the actual driveway, which around here can be quite large, and for clearing the large amounts of snow and ice left across your driveway by the city plows clearing the roads. Essentially tractors with snow blower attachments on the back PTO. Like this: https://www.deere.ca/assets/images/region-4/products/attachments/attachments-and-implements/utiilty-tractor-attachments-accessories/frontier-snow-removal-hero-449401.jpg https://www.deere.ca/assets/images/region-4/products/attachm...

card_zero 9mo ago

> How many trees have to be saved to make it worthwhile for more people breaking their bones? That has a specific answer, like "twenty". But calculating it would be a hopeless task.

BeetleB 9mo ago

> While that is true to some degree, the Berlin policy conveniently ignores all second-order effects: Sidewalks are more slippery, more people get hurt I seriously doubt they did not know that. The whole point of salt is to prevent people from falling. Of course they knew more people will fall.

bigbluesax 9mo ago

Is the concept of someone who usually doesn't eat potatoes getting a bag and spending the next week making some potato dishes really that inconceivable? I don't doubt that this will lead to some waste - I've thrown out more half empty potato bags than I would like to admit - but that's a very negative outlook. Also how do you choose between negative second order effects? Salting roads creates negative effects for groundwater and plants which are really hard to mitigate. On the other hand the second order effect of people slipping could at least be dealt with on an individual level by putting spikes on your shoes.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
> how do you choose between negative second order effects? First off you have to identify them. Until you frame the costs and benefits of salting, it isn't clear that the real question is how can we improve pedestrian and vehicular traction without poisoning our plants and water supply. (I'd argue it's frequent ploughing, gravelling and dynamic signs for signalling when chains/snowies/AWD are required.)

literalAardvark 9mo ago

You could always just clean the snow instead of salting it. It's not rocket science.

bddbbd 9mo ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
  > are you suggesting to use a mop when it rains to clean the water before it freezes Wyoming here. We don't generally salt our roads. Instead, a combination of ploughs (to clear it) and gravel (to increase traction) are used. More broadly: if you're "astonished with some people not having a grasp," consider that astonishment signals encountering something new.
- mindslight 9mo ago
  The gall to complain about "not having a grasp on reality" while writing hypersimplistic reactionary comments. The evidence for Dead Internet Theory grows by the day. With properly graded streets and sidewalks, liquid water runs off. When the bulk of snow is cleared, the small bits that remain melt, flow off, and/or evaporate during melting days. I can't comment on the specific climate of Berlin, but it certainly doesn't seem poised to be an arctic encampment.
bmulholland 9mo ago
Most Berlin sidewalks are uneven cobblestone, not a flat uniform concrete, so the cleaning is probably a lot more difficult than you're envisioning :)
- Xylakant 9mo ago
  The neighbors snow response contractor had an electric brush on a broom handle, that looked pretty nifty and took like 15 minutes for the whole front to be spotless clean. Then they added a bit of grit, done. The contractor for our block didn’t even show up. Not sure allowing salt would have changed anything.

bryanrasmussen 9mo ago

I mean it sounds sort of if you know what the second order effect of damage to plants and ground water will be if people salt their driveways? I would think you sort of need to run the test in production to see which way is more beneficial.

yunohn 9mo ago

Surely if you can consider the second order effects of giving away these extra potatoes for free, then you can also consider the second order effects of not giving them away? And maybe even thinking more about it, consider that they may be going to different markets/people/causes? Given this example is about 1T batches of potatoes, it could be used by a business that depends on cheap potatoes like a food kitchen, or a business that can absorb the input surge and convert it into a product that can be stored longer term like frozen foods.

marc_g 9mo ago

As someone who just went outside to buy groceries in Berlin and watched them salt the road on my way to Kaufland, I am confused. Is it just for sidewalks?

yorwba 9mo ago
Are you sure they weren't using sand or gravel instead?
- marc_g 9mo ago
  Hmm, I mean it was a lot of white stuff coming out. Again, on the street, so maybe it's different rules compared to sidewalks. Possibly sand, but I'm pretty sure it's salt. EDIT: Seems that some roads are allowed to be salted! It's a pretty main thoroughfare, so likely the case. https://www.bsr.de/bsr-winterdienst-gut-geruestet-fuer-die-kalte-jahreszeit https://www.bsr.de/bsr-winterdienst-gut-geruestet-fuer-die-k...
olieidel 9mo ago
Roads are salted, everything else is not.

blell 9mo ago

>How many trees have to be saved to make it worthwhile for more people breaking their bones? The **** is a death cult. They are very very happy to see you become an invalid if it avoids the death of a sapling. I know that this sounds hyperbolic to the point of being derisive, but it's the observable truth.

OKRainbowKid 9mo ago
Who specifically are you talking about?

Voultapher 9mo ago

Salting your ground water is also a second-order effect. The way you put that statement into quotes shows that you value human well being over everything else. Personally I don't. Life on earth is a co-op and we don't win by being the last ones standing, as we are desperately trying right now.

NedF 9mo ago
[dead]
tmp10423288442 9mo ago
When I hear people like you, I pray that natural selection will remove people like you from the population faster than mutations create them.
- pfannkuchen 9mo ago
  It isn’t genetic, it’s moral programming.
- rootsudo 9mo ago
  Wouldn't natural selection rewrd that behavior more?
fatata123 9mo ago
[dead]

NedF 9mo ago

[dead]

port11 9mo ago

The ban on salt isn’t silly, for a long time pebbles were good enough to prevent black ice, and perhaps even more effective than ice. Donating potatoes that were about to go to waste might cause waste elsewhere, but what you propose is that we never give food away unless we can be absolutely sure it won’t cause waste in another sub-system. That’s a tall order. These potatoes were going to be waste anyway.

dietr1ch 9mo ago

Good point on the second order concern, but I'd get potatoes and keep non-perishable food for later. Assuming the exact same weight or available caloric intake will be wasted is too simplistic.