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Wow a fantastic independent pub near where I used to live in London is seeing its rateable value go up 480%! This website really puts the headlines in to a nice

by sefrost 9mo ago

Wow a fantastic independent pub near where I used to live in London is seeing its rateable value go up 480%! This website really puts the headlines in to a nice local perspective. It seems like the taxes only go up while the services get worse in the UK, although I’ve been away for 5 years now so maybe things improved.

moop_moop 9mo ago
The services have certainly not got better in the last 5 years. This Government is fiscally illiterate and has hit the top of the Laffer curve and is now trying to go down the other side.
- fakedang 9mo ago
  Unfortunately, if an election were to be held today, the morons at Reform would have the greatest chance of winning, thanks to Starmer's ostrich syndrome, Corbyn dividing the Labour vote and the Tories being absolutely irrelevant after 15 years of continuous rule.
  - alexfoo 9mo ago
    Don’t. Just don’t. There’s time for some party to sort themselves out before the next election is due (Aug 2029).
  - GrowingSideways 9mo ago
    I thought Corbyn started his own party? Surely they have time to figure out a way to look more competent than Starmer of all people
    - fakedang 9mo ago
      The more Corbyn performs, the more the Labour vote will get divided. The same balkanization happened with the Tories and Reform/UKIP.
  - vixen99 9mo ago
    I'd be interested to know your view on how you think Britain should be governed and the extent to which you think others would agree. Serious question: can you offer a link to some such description?
    - fakedang 9mo ago
      Curtail immigration to pre-Brexit levels (with a strong focus on repatriating criminals and net tax non-contributing immigrant households), focus on the working class and devise a route for the UK to get back into the EU. Also refocus policing to focus on actual societal issues - child grooming and the rise of fundamentalist elements (as evidenced by the UAE banning their citizens from studying in the UK) - as opposed to elderly citizens tweets. Devalue the GBP to refund the NHS and roll back austerity while investing further into energy independence and removing bureaucratic red tape for consumer scale mitigation technologies. Any party that does all of these will be guaranteed electoral wins for decades - I've seen the data back when I was a Tory. Problem is, these points are kryptonite to the very identity of either major party.
      - vixen99 9mo ago
        Thank you! I took a bet with myself on what you would say (if you did) and lost! Seems to me that the EU as presently constructed is a huge problem; on some other points I'd agree.
      - cbeach 9mo ago
        Disagree on being subsumed into the stagnating EU (far better to align with dynamic English-speaking economies with strong growth, like the US). The EU customs union prevented the UK striking bilateral global free trade deals, and the legacy of EU over-regulation continues to curtail our innovation. The UK has a solid history of global trade and innovation, and it can acheive more if unshackled from the EU. Austerity is absolutely necessary. If we keep giving the NHS above-inflation pay rises inline with what their staff demand, it would consume the entire annual excess wealth from the productive half of the economy in a matter of decades. What we need are sensible and pragmatic policies like Reform's scaling back of net zero, for example. The cost of Ed Miliband's net zero measures are an estimated £4.5 trillion over the next 25 years, and a gross cost in excess of £7.6 trillion. https://iea.org.uk/media/net-zero-could-cost-britain-billions-more-than-officials-estimate-warns-new-iea-paper/ https://iea.org.uk/media/net-zero-could-cost-britain-billion... That's more than our entire GDP. Just one example is the 20 year wind farm contracts that Miliband has set up, with a guaranteed energy cost that's nearly double the market rate for gas power (and then on top of that we need to pay for wind curtailment, grid upgrades and expensive backup power plants to cover low wind days). https://x.com/ClaireCoutinho/status/2011335138987168173 https://x.com/ClaireCoutinho/status/2011335138987168173 We were promised that renewables would reduce energy bills. That was a total fiction, and the politicians are to blame. Green energy could be a massive success story, and it could make our bills cheaper, but inept politicians from the Tories and Labour have focussed instead on vanity metrics.
- LightBug1 9mo ago
  "This" ...? You jest.
  - HPsquared 9mo ago
    Meet the new government, same as the old government.
    - Quarrelsome 9mo ago
      old government left them a £20bn funding hole to fix as they broke the rules on spending.
  - LAC-Tech 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - vixen99 9mo ago
      The onus is on you to suggest an alternative. Which countries not under it 'face the same problems'?
      - LAC-Tech 9mo ago
        - A strong leader and a weak bureaucracy, so that your vote means something. - A good constitution that puts hard limits on what they can do, no boiling the frog with freedom of speech restrictions like Canada, Australia, and The UK So basically an elected dictator with a functioning kill switch. Not a parade of faceless, temporary, unimportant prime ministers and elections which don't matter.
        GJim 9mo ago
        > freedom of speech restrictions like Canada, Australia, and The UK Unlike in the USA, where speaking out to, or disagreeing with, the president will get you removed from positions of authority? (If you haven't already gathered, such bogus claims of free speech restrictions in other countries are distracting you from the reality of what is happening in your own country.)
- VBprogrammer 9mo ago
  This government have been in power for less than 2 years. Despite launching a lot of trial balloons on raising taxes they haven't actually raised the headline tax rates (other than allowing fiscal drag to do so). Overall the tax burden in the UK is middling for western democracies. It's actually on the low side for low earners - which is probably a problem because the distribution is such that the majority pay very little. The other problem being cliff edges and complexities which distinctive chasing pay rises and working more for a lot of people.
  - dgroshev 9mo ago
    The biggest problem is that the tax on a median taxpayer is not just "middling", it's a bit over a third of what a median German taxpayer is paying. The rest of the fiscal problems (convoluted tax rules, cliff edges to try to claw something back, abrupt tax increases like the one on pubs) are downstream from that.
    - pjc50 9mo ago
      > the tax on a median taxpayer is not just "middling", it's a bit over a third of what a median German taxpayer is paying Could you put the actual numbers in for that please, because to me that implies German tax rates of 120%? Is that across all forms of taxation, including local (the relevant one here!)
      - dgroshev 9mo ago
        Apologies, brain glitch: it's half, not third. Also, I'm talking about the effective tax rate, not the marginal tax rate. Here are the numbers: Median salary of a full time employee in the UK in 2023 (to match the German source): £34,963 [1] Take home on that salary (after income tax and NI): £28,692 [2] Effective tax rate on a median salary in the UK: ~18% Median salary of a full time employee in Germany: €4,479 pm [3] or €53,748 per year Take home: €34,281 [4] Effective tax rate on a median salary in Germany: ~36% Tax _rates_ are not that different, but the previous British governments really ramped up the tax-free allowance, which significantly reduces the effective tax rate. [1]: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2023 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... [2]: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [3]: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Earnings/Earnings-Earnings-Differences/Tables/liste-average-gross-monthly-earnings.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Earnings/Earnings-E... [4]: https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator
iNerdier 9mo ago
Amateurs. One close to me is at an +821% increase in its tax bill and rateable value at 613%.
brightbeige 9mo ago
Here’s the Lamb and Flag in Oxford https://www.ismypubfucked.com/pub/11447801200 https://www.ismypubfucked.com/pub/11447801200 > the Inklings, a literary group including J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis, started meeting at The Lamb and Flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_%26_Flag,_Oxford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_%26_Flag,_Oxford
- turbonaut 9mo ago
  The Lamb and Flag has faced previous financial challenges. It in fact closed temporarily in the pandemic due to UK law preventing their then owner / operator, St John’s College, a charity, subsidising a loss making business, despite having the wherewithal to do so. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-55763746.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-55763746.amp
- ahazred8ta 9mo ago
  > On the way to an Inklings meeting, Lewis gave some money to a street beggar, and I made the usual objection: "Won't he just spend it on drink?" He answered, "Yes, but if I kept it, so would I."
tialaramex 9mo ago
> seeing its rateable value go up 480%! Rateable value is based on what the market prices would be to rent that space. So, somebody is doing nicely apparently.
- sefrost 9mo ago
  But if the landlord owns the pub (rare in the UK I know), but I believe it’s the case in this instance, then what are they getting from unrealised property price gains?
  - ehnto 9mo ago
    What does anyone gain from it really, except money in the bank for a handful of individuals, outsized property prices seem to be a hurdle for functional societies in basically every way. It doesn't benefit a town if rent is so expensive that their businesses shut down.
    - econ 9mo ago
      When young I use to work in construction. (With diplomas) The wages for 18 year olds in the Netherlands at the time were such that I got 340 euro per month for 40 hour weeks. It's a truly shit salary but you could also see it as a wonderful formula to build cheap houses. As my boss billed the customers 28 euro per hour for my work and those houses cost roughly 35000 to buy(!) and it took roughly 80 hours of work each. (Very rough estimates but that oddly doesn't matter) You could say I build 6.4% of the houses. They roughly cost 350 000 euro today which seems 10 fold but since people can't afford that they need a mortgage and pay 3 times that amount over 30 years. That would mean my labor now costs 10 000 per month. At the time I tried to calculate the savings escape velocity and discovered that if I saved 100% of my income I would be able to buy my own house in never years. If I build 6.4% of a house in 2 weeks that would be 3.2% per week or 32 weeks to build 100%. Say 64 weeks and the process produces one whole home for someone else. I get that there should be some people between the construction worker and the citizen eventho they never did anything useful to the result but the margins are so preposterous that the original salary is a mere rounding error. Then I look at Amish barn raising videos and the laughter becomes uncontrollable. I would definitely go there and help out - for free of course. If I had to keep doing that I would look for some vegetables and uhh my own house? Even if they would never build it for me it would still be more enjoyable than the western extortion scheme.
huijzer 9mo ago
> It seems like the taxes only go up while the services get worse in the UK, Same in the Netherlands
fleroviumna 9mo ago
[dead]

by sefrost 9mo ago

moop_moop 9mo ago

The services have certainly not got better in the last 5 years. This Government is fiscally illiterate and has hit the top of the Laffer curve and is now trying to go down the other side.

fakedang 9mo ago
Unfortunately, if an election were to be held today, the morons at Reform would have the greatest chance of winning, thanks to Starmer's ostrich syndrome, Corbyn dividing the Labour vote and the Tories being absolutely irrelevant after 15 years of continuous rule.
- alexfoo 9mo ago
  Don’t. Just don’t. There’s time for some party to sort themselves out before the next election is due (Aug 2029).
- GrowingSideways 9mo ago
  I thought Corbyn started his own party? Surely they have time to figure out a way to look more competent than Starmer of all people
  - fakedang 9mo ago
    The more Corbyn performs, the more the Labour vote will get divided. The same balkanization happened with the Tories and Reform/UKIP.
- vixen99 9mo ago
  I'd be interested to know your view on how you think Britain should be governed and the extent to which you think others would agree. Serious question: can you offer a link to some such description?
  - fakedang 9mo ago
    Curtail immigration to pre-Brexit levels (with a strong focus on repatriating criminals and net tax non-contributing immigrant households), focus on the working class and devise a route for the UK to get back into the EU. Also refocus policing to focus on actual societal issues - child grooming and the rise of fundamentalist elements (as evidenced by the UAE banning their citizens from studying in the UK) - as opposed to elderly citizens tweets. Devalue the GBP to refund the NHS and roll back austerity while investing further into energy independence and removing bureaucratic red tape for consumer scale mitigation technologies. Any party that does all of these will be guaranteed electoral wins for decades - I've seen the data back when I was a Tory. Problem is, these points are kryptonite to the very identity of either major party.
    - vixen99 9mo ago
      Thank you! I took a bet with myself on what you would say (if you did) and lost! Seems to me that the EU as presently constructed is a huge problem; on some other points I'd agree.
    - cbeach 9mo ago
      Disagree on being subsumed into the stagnating EU (far better to align with dynamic English-speaking economies with strong growth, like the US). The EU customs union prevented the UK striking bilateral global free trade deals, and the legacy of EU over-regulation continues to curtail our innovation. The UK has a solid history of global trade and innovation, and it can acheive more if unshackled from the EU. Austerity is absolutely necessary. If we keep giving the NHS above-inflation pay rises inline with what their staff demand, it would consume the entire annual excess wealth from the productive half of the economy in a matter of decades. What we need are sensible and pragmatic policies like Reform's scaling back of net zero, for example. The cost of Ed Miliband's net zero measures are an estimated £4.5 trillion over the next 25 years, and a gross cost in excess of £7.6 trillion. https://iea.org.uk/media/net-zero-could-cost-britain-billions-more-than-officials-estimate-warns-new-iea-paper/ https://iea.org.uk/media/net-zero-could-cost-britain-billion... That's more than our entire GDP. Just one example is the 20 year wind farm contracts that Miliband has set up, with a guaranteed energy cost that's nearly double the market rate for gas power (and then on top of that we need to pay for wind curtailment, grid upgrades and expensive backup power plants to cover low wind days). https://x.com/ClaireCoutinho/status/2011335138987168173 https://x.com/ClaireCoutinho/status/2011335138987168173 We were promised that renewables would reduce energy bills. That was a total fiction, and the politicians are to blame. Green energy could be a massive success story, and it could make our bills cheaper, but inept politicians from the Tories and Labour have focussed instead on vanity metrics.
LightBug1 9mo ago
"This" ...? You jest.
- HPsquared 9mo ago
  Meet the new government, same as the old government.
  - Quarrelsome 9mo ago
    old government left them a £20bn funding hole to fix as they broke the rules on spending.
- LAC-Tech 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - vixen99 9mo ago
    The onus is on you to suggest an alternative. Which countries not under it 'face the same problems'?
    - LAC-Tech 9mo ago
      - A strong leader and a weak bureaucracy, so that your vote means something. - A good constitution that puts hard limits on what they can do, no boiling the frog with freedom of speech restrictions like Canada, Australia, and The UK So basically an elected dictator with a functioning kill switch. Not a parade of faceless, temporary, unimportant prime ministers and elections which don't matter.
      - GJim 9mo ago
        > freedom of speech restrictions like Canada, Australia, and The UK Unlike in the USA, where speaking out to, or disagreeing with, the president will get you removed from positions of authority? (If you haven't already gathered, such bogus claims of free speech restrictions in other countries are distracting you from the reality of what is happening in your own country.)
VBprogrammer 9mo ago
This government have been in power for less than 2 years. Despite launching a lot of trial balloons on raising taxes they haven't actually raised the headline tax rates (other than allowing fiscal drag to do so). Overall the tax burden in the UK is middling for western democracies. It's actually on the low side for low earners - which is probably a problem because the distribution is such that the majority pay very little. The other problem being cliff edges and complexities which distinctive chasing pay rises and working more for a lot of people.
- dgroshev 9mo ago
  The biggest problem is that the tax on a median taxpayer is not just "middling", it's a bit over a third of what a median German taxpayer is paying. The rest of the fiscal problems (convoluted tax rules, cliff edges to try to claw something back, abrupt tax increases like the one on pubs) are downstream from that.
  - pjc50 9mo ago
    > the tax on a median taxpayer is not just "middling", it's a bit over a third of what a median German taxpayer is paying Could you put the actual numbers in for that please, because to me that implies German tax rates of 120%? Is that across all forms of taxation, including local (the relevant one here!)
    - dgroshev 9mo ago
      Apologies, brain glitch: it's half, not third. Also, I'm talking about the effective tax rate, not the marginal tax rate. Here are the numbers: Median salary of a full time employee in the UK in 2023 (to match the German source): £34,963 [1] Take home on that salary (after income tax and NI): £28,692 [2] Effective tax rate on a median salary in the UK: ~18% Median salary of a full time employee in Germany: €4,479 pm [3] or €53,748 per year Take home: €34,281 [4] Effective tax rate on a median salary in Germany: ~36% Tax _rates_ are not that different, but the previous British governments really ramped up the tax-free allowance, which significantly reduces the effective tax rate. [1]: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2023 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... [2]: https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [3]: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Earnings/Earnings-Earnings-Differences/Tables/liste-average-gross-monthly-earnings.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Earnings/Earnings-E... [4]: https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator

iNerdier 9mo ago

Amateurs. One close to me is at an +821% increase in its tax bill and rateable value at 613%.

brightbeige 9mo ago

Here’s the Lamb and Flag in Oxford https://www.ismypubfucked.com/pub/11447801200 https://www.ismypubfucked.com/pub/11447801200 > the Inklings, a literary group including J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis, started meeting at The Lamb and Flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_%26_Flag,_Oxford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_%26_Flag,_Oxford

turbonaut 9mo ago
The Lamb and Flag has faced previous financial challenges. It in fact closed temporarily in the pandemic due to UK law preventing their then owner / operator, St John’s College, a charity, subsidising a loss making business, despite having the wherewithal to do so. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-55763746.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-55763746.amp
ahazred8ta 9mo ago
> On the way to an Inklings meeting, Lewis gave some money to a street beggar, and I made the usual objection: "Won't he just spend it on drink?" He answered, "Yes, but if I kept it, so would I."

tialaramex 9mo ago

> seeing its rateable value go up 480%! Rateable value is based on what the market prices would be to rent that space. So, somebody is doing nicely apparently.

sefrost 9mo ago
But if the landlord owns the pub (rare in the UK I know), but I believe it’s the case in this instance, then what are they getting from unrealised property price gains?
- ehnto 9mo ago
  What does anyone gain from it really, except money in the bank for a handful of individuals, outsized property prices seem to be a hurdle for functional societies in basically every way. It doesn't benefit a town if rent is so expensive that their businesses shut down.
  - econ 9mo ago
    When young I use to work in construction. (With diplomas) The wages for 18 year olds in the Netherlands at the time were such that I got 340 euro per month for 40 hour weeks. It's a truly shit salary but you could also see it as a wonderful formula to build cheap houses. As my boss billed the customers 28 euro per hour for my work and those houses cost roughly 35000 to buy(!) and it took roughly 80 hours of work each. (Very rough estimates but that oddly doesn't matter) You could say I build 6.4% of the houses. They roughly cost 350 000 euro today which seems 10 fold but since people can't afford that they need a mortgage and pay 3 times that amount over 30 years. That would mean my labor now costs 10 000 per month. At the time I tried to calculate the savings escape velocity and discovered that if I saved 100% of my income I would be able to buy my own house in never years. If I build 6.4% of a house in 2 weeks that would be 3.2% per week or 32 weeks to build 100%. Say 64 weeks and the process produces one whole home for someone else. I get that there should be some people between the construction worker and the citizen eventho they never did anything useful to the result but the margins are so preposterous that the original salary is a mere rounding error. Then I look at Amish barn raising videos and the laughter becomes uncontrollable. I would definitely go there and help out - for free of course. If I had to keep doing that I would look for some vegetables and uhh my own house? Even if they would never build it for me it would still be more enjoyable than the western extortion scheme.

huijzer 9mo ago

> It seems like the taxes only go up while the services get worse in the UK, Same in the Netherlands

fleroviumna 9mo ago

[dead]