5 ms·

Interest in context on "government pub rates". New tax scheme?

by rconti 10mo ago

cjs_ac 10mo ago
Changes to property taxes on business premises.
amiga386 10mo ago
Existing tax. Proposed new calculation for the "value" of business property, disproportionately affecting pubs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8e57dexly1o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8e57dexly1o > In her November Budget, Chancellor Rachel Reeves scaled back business rate discounts that have been in force since the pandemic from 75% to 40% - and announced that there would be no discount at all from April. That, combined with big upward adjustments to rateable values of pub premises, left landlords with the prospect of much higher rates bills. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_rates_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_rates_in_England > Properties are assessed in a rating list with a rateable value, a valuation of their annual rental value on a fixed valuation date using assumptions fixed by statute. Rating lists are created and maintained by the Valuation Office Agency, a UK government executive agency.
- rconti 10mo ago
  Ah, interesting. So it sounds like the tax roughly scales with property value (or size). And pubs are probably a "poor use of land" because the revenue per square foot is not particularly high?
  - amiga386 10mo ago
    Yes. It scales with a government agency's estimate of the property's annual rent (even if you own it), based on market rates in the area over the past two years, which they then scale up/down based on floorspace and how dilapidated the building is. You pay a percentage of the hypothetical rent as tax. There is a lower rate if you're a small business, and there are also tax reliefs for various reasons (charity, partial building occupation, etc.) But pubs have been in trouble for quite some time: https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2025/05/27/number-of-pub-closures-over-past-25-years/ https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2025/05/27/numbe... Pubs have high costs, small margins and customers are extremely price-sensitive. What pubs are generally asking for is more types of relief, because what we tend to see is pubs close, people in the area become more isolated, and the building remains empty for years thereafter. [] Pubs appreciated the post-COVID relief, but tax rates are about to shoot up. [] fun fact: if the building is vacant, its landlord must pay rates as if it's 100% occupied. Hence this brazen scheme where a man puts a snail farm in every room so you can pay the rates of an agricultural enterprise: https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2025/dec/04/the-long-read-snail-farm-tax-avoidance-scheme-terry-ball https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2025/dec/04/...
    - eichin 10mo ago
      ... was that a real guardian article, or just an elaborate prank built around the phrase "shell company"?
    - bloak 9mo ago
      But how does the "snail farm" scheme compare with the "place of worship" scheme? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/23/ye-of-little-faith-the-tax-loophole-that-turns-old-pubs-into-places-of-worship https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/23/ye-of-littl...
      - rconti 9mo ago
        This is the opposite of the Free House in Nelson, NZ; a pub in a former church. https://thefreehouse.co.nz https://thefreehouse.co.nz
    - rconti 9mo ago
      Interesting how punitive the tax structure is on vacant buildings. On the one hand, harsh for the landlord. On the other hand, encourages lower rent to get the space occupied and reduce blight.
RobinL 10mo ago
> In her November Budget, Chancellor Rachel Reeves scaled back business rate discounts that have been in force since the pandemic from 75% to 40% - and announced that there would be no discount at all from April. That, combined with big upward adjustments to rateable values of pub premises, left landlords with the prospect of much higher rates bills.
flir 10mo ago
Pubs are dying. Have been for years. Many deaths were postponed because their taxes were reduced due to Covid. Those taxes are now returning to normal levels. This will result in a glut of deaths, as pubs that were just hanging on go under. The policy question is, basically, do we want to subsidize pubs because they're part of our national culture, even though we don't use them nearly as much as we used to?
- christkv 10mo ago
  Lower taxes is not subsidising a business.
  - hermanzegerman 10mo ago
    It is, when it gets a favourable treatment over other businesses
- kristianc 10mo ago
  "Does Britain really need?" has been responsible for the gutting of so much of what used to make Britain a nice place to live over the last 20 years. You can say she same about public libraries, local bus routes, civic architecture, arts funding, youth services, maintenance budgets. The damage has been incalculable.
  - flir 10mo ago
    You won't find any argument from me on all those other things. But pubs are a weird place to draw the line.
    - kristianc 10mo ago
      Every one of them individually seems like a weird place to draw the line. Social fabric and the ties that bond matter.
    - ljm 9mo ago
      Probably because the line keeps getting moved. There's a lot of pressure to build housing with little to no consideration of community, either existing or new. Just get rid of all the third spaces in an area and turn it into a lifeless residential suburb or something. Once pubs are gone it'll be something else.

Interest in context on "government pub rates". New tax scheme?

by rconti 10mo ago

Interest in context on "government pub rates". New tax scheme?

cjs_ac 10mo ago

Changes to property taxes on business premises.

amiga386 10mo ago

Existing tax. Proposed new calculation for the "value" of business property, disproportionately affecting pubs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8e57dexly1o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8e57dexly1o > In her November Budget, Chancellor Rachel Reeves scaled back business rate discounts that have been in force since the pandemic from 75% to 40% - and announced that there would be no discount at all from April. That, combined with big upward adjustments to rateable values of pub premises, left landlords with the prospect of much higher rates bills. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_rates_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_rates_in_England > Properties are assessed in a rating list with a rateable value, a valuation of their annual rental value on a fixed valuation date using assumptions fixed by statute. Rating lists are created and maintained by the Valuation Office Agency, a UK government executive agency.

rconti 10mo ago
Ah, interesting. So it sounds like the tax roughly scales with property value (or size). And pubs are probably a "poor use of land" because the revenue per square foot is not particularly high?
- amiga386 10mo ago
  Yes. It scales with a government agency's estimate of the property's annual rent (even if you own it), based on market rates in the area over the past two years, which they then scale up/down based on floorspace and how dilapidated the building is. You pay a percentage of the hypothetical rent as tax. There is a lower rate if you're a small business, and there are also tax reliefs for various reasons (charity, partial building occupation, etc.) But pubs have been in trouble for quite some time: https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2025/05/27/number-of-pub-closures-over-past-25-years/ https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2025/05/27/numbe... Pubs have high costs, small margins and customers are extremely price-sensitive. What pubs are generally asking for is more types of relief, because what we tend to see is pubs close, people in the area become more isolated, and the building remains empty for years thereafter. [] Pubs appreciated the post-COVID relief, but tax rates are about to shoot up. [] fun fact: if the building is vacant, its landlord must pay rates as if it's 100% occupied. Hence this brazen scheme where a man puts a snail farm in every room so you can pay the rates of an agricultural enterprise: https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2025/dec/04/the-long-read-snail-farm-tax-avoidance-scheme-terry-ball https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2025/dec/04/...
  - eichin 10mo ago
    ... was that a real guardian article, or just an elaborate prank built around the phrase "shell company"?
  - bloak 9mo ago
    But how does the "snail farm" scheme compare with the "place of worship" scheme? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/23/ye-of-little-faith-the-tax-loophole-that-turns-old-pubs-into-places-of-worship https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/23/ye-of-littl...
    - rconti 9mo ago
      This is the opposite of the Free House in Nelson, NZ; a pub in a former church. https://thefreehouse.co.nz https://thefreehouse.co.nz
  - rconti 9mo ago
    Interesting how punitive the tax structure is on vacant buildings. On the one hand, harsh for the landlord. On the other hand, encourages lower rent to get the space occupied and reduce blight.

RobinL 10mo ago

> In her November Budget, Chancellor Rachel Reeves scaled back business rate discounts that have been in force since the pandemic from 75% to 40% - and announced that there would be no discount at all from April. That, combined with big upward adjustments to rateable values of pub premises, left landlords with the prospect of much higher rates bills.

flir 10mo ago

Pubs are dying. Have been for years. Many deaths were postponed because their taxes were reduced due to Covid. Those taxes are now returning to normal levels. This will result in a glut of deaths, as pubs that were just hanging on go under. The policy question is, basically, do we want to subsidize pubs because they're part of our national culture, even though we don't use them nearly as much as we used to?

christkv 10mo ago
Lower taxes is not subsidising a business.
- hermanzegerman 10mo ago
  It is, when it gets a favourable treatment over other businesses
kristianc 10mo ago
"Does Britain really need?" has been responsible for the gutting of so much of what used to make Britain a nice place to live over the last 20 years. You can say she same about public libraries, local bus routes, civic architecture, arts funding, youth services, maintenance budgets. The damage has been incalculable.
- flir 10mo ago
  You won't find any argument from me on all those other things. But pubs are a weird place to draw the line.
  - kristianc 10mo ago
    Every one of them individually seems like a weird place to draw the line. Social fabric and the ties that bond matter.
  - ljm 9mo ago
    Probably because the line keeps getting moved. There's a lot of pressure to build housing with little to no consideration of community, either existing or new. Just get rid of all the third spaces in an area and turn it into a lifeless residential suburb or something. Once pubs are gone it'll be something else.