5 ms·

It sounds like they've dropped the digital ID part being mandatory, but not the digital right-to-work checks being mandatory. I suspect that the UK will end up

It sounds like they've dropped the digital ID part being mandatory, but not the digital right-to-work checks being mandatory. I suspect that the UK will end up building something like the US's E-Verify programme, which allows a number of documents to be checked against authoritative sources. It really wouldn't be that hard to build a service that in the first instance allowed you to generate a share code with a GBR passport much the same way people can generate share codes with their drivers licenses or UKVI accounts. What I have a problem with is just how fragmented and broken the UK immigration system is when you have the misfortune of coming into contact with it. It's (like many such large systems worldwide) a set of policies and rules that have accumulated over time into something that is pathologically poorly thought out. I'm going through the process of renewing my spouse's visa (I'm British), and it's fractally awful -- we've just had a snarky email from our landlord who is worried that the right-to-rent permission is expiring, but it's not possible to apply for a renewal for the visa prior to 28 days before expiry of her current visa. I meet all the criteria to sponsor my spouse for renewal, but the evidentiary burden is insane (I've collected 400+ pages of documents so far). Nobody wants this. It is very expensive and difficult (probably >£10k per person until permanent residency in fees, not including legal expenses) to be compliant even if you meet the criteria, which just leads people falling out of status (to borrow an American term). The government (of all stripes) tries to be "tough" but the only lever it knows how to pull is to make the rules stricter, not making them better enforced or align with some meaningful policy agenda. This farcical situation extends into the UK's broken citizenship model where there are 6 different types of nationality, none of which give any rights you can't build through a hodgepodge of other different statuses. As far as I know the UK is the only country in the world that permits dual nationality with itself! A government online account which can generate verifiable credentials would probably be helpful in a broad sense but it wouldn't cure bad policy which is rampant in the UK immigration sector. I'd much rather have some kind of digital ID that's clear and authoritative rather than just hoping that Experian has my details right with no recourse if they're wrong.

exe34 9mo ago
> As far as I know the UK is the only country in the world that permits dual nationality with itself! How does one apply for this?
- noodlesUK 9mo ago
  It’s possible to have been born with multiple forms of British nationality such as being BOTC (e.g. bermudians) and a British citizen at the same time. It’s also possible for e.g. a BNO to register for British citizenship after a period of residence in the UK. This does not extinguish the original nationality. Most hong kongers with British citizenship are in this bucket.
  - exe34 9mo ago
    Oh right, so it's British Empire vs British mainland citizenship.
    - chippiewill 9mo ago
      Yeah, it's not as crazy as they make it sound. They're also technically a Commonwealth citizen and previously an EU citizen. Not exactly two citizenships of the same country.
      - noodlesUK 9mo ago
        It really is pretty crazy that some of the more esoteric forms of citizenship have never been rolled into "British Citizen". Almost all BOTCs were given the opportunity to become British Citizens, but not all, and they kept the original status around. BNOs are similarly a somewhat silly situation especially now that it's possible to move to the UK on the special BNO visa (which gives them different/better family reunion rights than normal British citizens). British Subjects essentially don't exist in practice, but they also haven't just rolled that into British Citizen status either (British Subject is the residual status of certain Irish born people who chose to retain the status - they have the right to live in the UK on the basis of their Irish nationality, not on their British nationality which is insane). There's just a perpetual allergy to just rationalising the whole setup. It would be perfectly politically acceptable to just do away with the statuses that have fewer than say 5000 people and grant them all full-fat citizenship. Generally people who live in the UK are shocked when they find out that holding a British passport does not entitle you to the right to live in the UK.
vablings 9mo ago
The whole headache around good legal immigration is exactly why I left the UK after getting married. The costs, timeline and paperwork associated is insane! The US system is fairly bad too, but the rules and categories are clear cut with reasonable timelines
masfuerte 9mo ago
> This farcical situation extends into the UK's broken citizenship model where there are 6 different types of nationality, none of which give any rights you can't build through a hodgepodge of other different statuses. There is one right. If you are British at birth they can't strip your citizenship and kick you out. Everyone else's residence is at the whim of the Home Secretary.
- funnybeam 9mo ago
  Not heard of Shamima Begum? British born, stripped of citizenship I’m not commenting on the rightness or not of her case, just pointing out that being born British is not necessarily the guarantee you are describing
  - masfuerte 9mo ago
    She was entitled to citizenship but she wasn't born with it. My cousin's children were in a similar position having been born outside the UK.
    - funnybeam 9mo ago
      According to Wikipedia she was born in Britain and a British citizen, but i am not aware of all the ins and outs of her case
      - masfuerte 9mo ago
        I'm not an immigration lawyer but as I understand it: having been born in the UK as the child of Bangladeshi parents who were living here legally she was entitled to British citizenship, but she wasn't British automatically. They would have had to apply for it. As such, the politicians were able to take it away. This is quite a recent change in the law. Prior to 2014 they could only strip citizenship if you applied and received it without having a right to it (e.g. if you were born abroad to non-British parents). After 2014 naturalised citizens (like Begum) were also liable. I do think it is a bad law and she is being treated disgracefully. There's still hope the ECHR will sort it.
rwmj 9mo ago
Also Irish citizens in Britain have the same rights as British citizens (even voting), plus all the benefits of EU citizenship too. Brexit made us second class citizens in our own country. Good job everyone.

exe34 9mo ago

> As far as I know the UK is the only country in the world that permits dual nationality with itself! How does one apply for this?

noodlesUK 9mo ago
It’s possible to have been born with multiple forms of British nationality such as being BOTC (e.g. bermudians) and a British citizen at the same time. It’s also possible for e.g. a BNO to register for British citizenship after a period of residence in the UK. This does not extinguish the original nationality. Most hong kongers with British citizenship are in this bucket.
- exe34 9mo ago
  Oh right, so it's British Empire vs British mainland citizenship.
  - chippiewill 9mo ago
    Yeah, it's not as crazy as they make it sound. They're also technically a Commonwealth citizen and previously an EU citizen. Not exactly two citizenships of the same country.
    - noodlesUK 9mo ago
      It really is pretty crazy that some of the more esoteric forms of citizenship have never been rolled into "British Citizen". Almost all BOTCs were given the opportunity to become British Citizens, but not all, and they kept the original status around. BNOs are similarly a somewhat silly situation especially now that it's possible to move to the UK on the special BNO visa (which gives them different/better family reunion rights than normal British citizens). British Subjects essentially don't exist in practice, but they also haven't just rolled that into British Citizen status either (British Subject is the residual status of certain Irish born people who chose to retain the status - they have the right to live in the UK on the basis of their Irish nationality, not on their British nationality which is insane). There's just a perpetual allergy to just rationalising the whole setup. It would be perfectly politically acceptable to just do away with the statuses that have fewer than say 5000 people and grant them all full-fat citizenship. Generally people who live in the UK are shocked when they find out that holding a British passport does not entitle you to the right to live in the UK.

vablings 9mo ago

The whole headache around good legal immigration is exactly why I left the UK after getting married. The costs, timeline and paperwork associated is insane! The US system is fairly bad too, but the rules and categories are clear cut with reasonable timelines

masfuerte 9mo ago

> This farcical situation extends into the UK's broken citizenship model where there are 6 different types of nationality, none of which give any rights you can't build through a hodgepodge of other different statuses. There is one right. If you are British at birth they can't strip your citizenship and kick you out. Everyone else's residence is at the whim of the Home Secretary.

funnybeam 9mo ago
Not heard of Shamima Begum? British born, stripped of citizenship I’m not commenting on the rightness or not of her case, just pointing out that being born British is not necessarily the guarantee you are describing
- masfuerte 9mo ago
  She was entitled to citizenship but she wasn't born with it. My cousin's children were in a similar position having been born outside the UK.
  - funnybeam 9mo ago
    According to Wikipedia she was born in Britain and a British citizen, but i am not aware of all the ins and outs of her case
    - masfuerte 9mo ago
      I'm not an immigration lawyer but as I understand it: having been born in the UK as the child of Bangladeshi parents who were living here legally she was entitled to British citizenship, but she wasn't British automatically. They would have had to apply for it. As such, the politicians were able to take it away. This is quite a recent change in the law. Prior to 2014 they could only strip citizenship if you applied and received it without having a right to it (e.g. if you were born abroad to non-British parents). After 2014 naturalised citizens (like Begum) were also liable. I do think it is a bad law and she is being treated disgracefully. There's still hope the ECHR will sort it.

rwmj 9mo ago

Also Irish citizens in Britain have the same rights as British citizens (even voting), plus all the benefits of EU citizenship too. Brexit made us second class citizens in our own country. Good job everyone.