4 ms·

“Acquiring” in that sentence is doing a lot of work for “forcibly invading a NATO ally and triggering article 5”.

by robin_reala 10mo ago

palata 10mo ago
I don't think it will trigger article 5. Rather it will (or has?) destroy NATO.
- aebtebeten 10mo ago
  Luckily there are other defensive alliances in place. The broad advantage of having a "felt of society" —mutually overlapping circles— as opposed to a "fabric of society", is that the latter is much easier to tear.
  - fifilura 10mo ago
    European Union article 42(7) for example. But it has not been very well developed since there was little need with Nato around.
    - aebtebeten 10mo ago
      Not well developed would be to our advantage if the casus foederis were in a grey area. (It's somewhat :lolsob: to note that Thucydides already distinguished between "stated reasons" and "real reasons" behind a conflict; remember "Remember the Maine!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli#:~:text=Proschema,causes%20for%20fear%29%2e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli#:~:text=Proschema,... ) EDIT: looks like there may not even be a need to be part of an existing mutual defence alliance; sending troops to take part in Operation Arctic Endurance might suffice for an Art 51 response to invasion? https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e241#:~:text=The%20most%20obvious,objects%20of%20an%20armed%20attack https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/97801992316... 3(a) and 3(d) refer to: https://iilj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/General-Assembly-Resolution-3314.pdf#page=2 https://iilj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/General-Assembly...
- jrs235 10mo ago
  Exactly what Putin wants.
ReptileMan 10mo ago
And what will we Europeans do if Denmark triggers article 5. A single US carrier group could stop all commercial traffic to Europe and a single USA submarine could keep the parody of navies we have in check.
- aebtebeten 10mo ago
  (a) if DK triggered Art 5, could Ambassador Whitaker not implement a Denial of Service attack? (b) I'm more optimistic. Indeed, on the scale of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46510437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46510437 I'm currently on "practise speaking Cantonese". Why? Because even if Oceania, Rasia, and Eastasia want to play 1984 sphere of influence games, we can probably position ourselves neutrally, to trade freely with all of them — and whenever one has designs on us, then the other two would naturally be forced to counter.

“Acquiring” in that sentence is doing a lot of work for “forcibly invading a NATO ally and triggering article 5”.

palata 10mo ago

I don't think it will trigger article 5. Rather it will (or has?) destroy NATO.

aebtebeten 10mo ago
Luckily there are other defensive alliances in place. The broad advantage of having a "felt of society" —mutually overlapping circles— as opposed to a "fabric of society", is that the latter is much easier to tear.
- fifilura 10mo ago
  European Union article 42(7) for example. But it has not been very well developed since there was little need with Nato around.
  - aebtebeten 10mo ago
    Not well developed would be to our advantage if the casus foederis were in a grey area. (It's somewhat :lolsob: to note that Thucydides already distinguished between "stated reasons" and "real reasons" behind a conflict; remember "Remember the Maine!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli#:~:text=Proschema,causes%20for%20fear%29%2e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli#:~:text=Proschema,... ) EDIT: looks like there may not even be a need to be part of an existing mutual defence alliance; sending troops to take part in Operation Arctic Endurance might suffice for an Art 51 response to invasion? https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e241#:~:text=The%20most%20obvious,objects%20of%20an%20armed%20attack https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/97801992316... 3(a) and 3(d) refer to: https://iilj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/General-Assembly-Resolution-3314.pdf#page=2 https://iilj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/General-Assembly...
jrs235 10mo ago
Exactly what Putin wants.

ReptileMan 10mo ago

And what will we Europeans do if Denmark triggers article 5. A single US carrier group could stop all commercial traffic to Europe and a single USA submarine could keep the parody of navies we have in check.

aebtebeten 10mo ago
(a) if DK triggered Art 5, could Ambassador Whitaker not implement a Denial of Service attack? (b) I'm more optimistic. Indeed, on the scale of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46510437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46510437 I'm currently on "practise speaking Cantonese". Why? Because even if Oceania, Rasia, and Eastasia want to play 1984 sphere of influence games, we can probably position ourselves neutrally, to trade freely with all of them — and whenever one has designs on us, then the other two would naturally be forced to counter.