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Overall I think Code of Conducts are a net negative. Alleged violations of them seem to be used to lend credibility to actions that otherwise would be hard(er)

by MaKey 9mo ago

Overall I think Code of Conducts are a net negative. Alleged violations of them seem to be used to lend credibility to actions that otherwise would be hard(er) to justify.

calvinmorrison 9mo ago
This is nothing to do with Code of Conduct and just one business chosing not to do business with another.
micromacrofoot 9mo ago
This is like saying "overall laws are bad" because whoever is applying them is doing so maliciously. Even in the absence of COC companies like this always find a way to justify this sort of pressure. If not a COC, it's a TOS or NDA or whatever document acronym you can find.
- mikkupikku 9mo ago
  Nobody would accept the rule of law if we didn't all know the alternative was the local bullies with the most friends and guns declaring themselves warlords and selling your family into slavery. An open source project without a CoC on the other hand is quite normal and harmless. Maybe some people sometimes get their feelings hurt, but CoCs obviously don't prevent that anyway. The whole thing is dumb.
- tpmoney 9mo ago
  I would argue that laws are “bad” if there’s no way to get a proper hearing when you’re accused of violating them. Laws should constrain both sides of the law (the person subject to them and the person enforcing them) otherwise they’re just arbitrary rules by the person with more power. And while that’s a perfectly valid way to run something, it’s dishonest to dress “arbitrary personal decisions” up in the trappings of law. And realistically that applies to all the things you listed, COC, NDA, TOS etc. But if someone can just drag out a law and vaguely accuse someone else of violating that law and then enforce a punishment with no way for the accused to get a hearing or present their case and have a real chance to prevail, then yes I would say the law is bad.
seanhunter 9mo ago
Overall I wish we lived in a world where they are not needed. But in every community, some people are assholes so they are often needed.
- MaKey 9mo ago
  Communities were doing just fine without a CoC up until they became a trend. People got banned too but the moderators couldn't hide behind a CoC to justify questionable decisions.
  - KaiserPro 9mo ago
    > Communities were doing just fine without a CoC I mean kinda, but also not. CoCs just codify what the moderators think. Even Hacker news has a CoC: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html its just called a guide. A community has to have a set of rules which most people agree on. One of the most common attacks in a moderated forum is "Oh but X did Y" and "thats not fair X can do it" A CoC can be a simple way to "tap the sign" when someone is being a dick. It also allows communities to set expectations at the start, not after someone has transgressed and pissed in the well. In an ideal world, you'd just have a thing that says "don't be a dick" but that doesn't work for many and hilarious reasons. Engineers who who either have a god complex, parsing issues or empathy gaps (either learnt or inherent ) are notoriously difficult as a community to keep from getting into frothy arguments that colour everything and give off a bad smell. CoCs are a tool, that can sometimes help.
    - none_to_remain 9mo ago
      I perceive "guidelines" or "rules" having a very different connotation compared to a "code of conduct." See for, example, the SQLite team adopting the Rule of St. Benedict as their "Code of Conduct," getting criticized for it, and changing it to a "Code of Ethics" in accordance with the Rule about seeking accommodation with your adversaries.
      - 9mo ago
15155 9mo ago
They're a weapon of "social justice" - 90% of CoC rules are common-sense stuff that doesn't have to be said, combined with one or two "progressive" ideas shoehorned in.
- swed420 9mo ago
  And "social justice" is often a weapon of capital interests in disguise.
  - mikkupikku 9mo ago
    That's why it was kicked into overdrive during/after Occupy Wall Street. The message of bankers screwing over everybody else in the country had clear broad appeal and people were paying attention and talking about the issue. Then, newspapers started reporting that the OWS protestors were using a "progressive stack" to silence white men and give all the talking time to the freak squad... I don't even know if that narrative had any truth or if the newspapers made it up whole cloth, but regardless it was something most American's certainly could never agree with, so OWS was overnight transformed into a social justice freak show in the eyes of the public and people stopped talking about bankers.
- fortran77 9mo ago
  I was once told I couldn’t present a calorie counting/diet app at an Elm conference because it violated their CoC about discrimination based on “body size”.
  - MaKey 9mo ago
    That's just absurd.
- KaiserPro 9mo ago
  Mate, thats just rules. rules you don't agree with.
  - 15155 9mo ago
chasd00 9mo ago
It just dawned on me that CoC docs are basically HR for open source. Point to a violation and voila, that person is gone. “Sorry, nothing personal, CoC violation, there’s nothing I can do”.
- MaKey 9mo ago
  Exactly. Without a CoC the persons making hard decisions have to stand behind them. With a CoC they can hide behind the CoC and wash their hands in innocence. This lowers the barrier for making questionable decisions and overall decreases honesty. We've seen this with the suspension of Python core maintainer Tim Peters.
  - allreduce 9mo ago
    Honestly, this is the first argument against CoCs I've seen that I agree with. They do kinda act as a tool to deflect responsibility.
  - echelon 9mo ago
    I had never heard of the Tim Peters incident, but I just googled it. (It's not on his Wikipedia page.) I found this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1ep4dbt/the_shameful_defenestration_of_tim/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1ep4dbt/the_shamefu... Which points to this: https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestr... This characterizes it as completely unfair, and the /r/python community seems to agree. Is there a rebuttal from the other side?
    - rpdillon 9mo ago
      Wow, I somehow missed all that. That's horrendous. I've always felt that a code of conduct is a tool for bureaucrats to hide behind, and episode doesn't alter my view. Thanks for sharing.
pamcake 9mo ago
There are bad CoCs and ways to abuse them and people who do. That doesn't mean the concept of setting social expectations for a collaborative project is inherently bad. Same as for discussion forum guidelines and moderation. No CoC is better than a bad CoC or one where interpretation is centralized to someone with an agenda. But many times a decent CoC can help newcomers in reading the room and support well-intended moderators in making judgement calls. I also think good CoCs are small and mostly reactive. It's premature social engineering to spend energy on formulating general policies for things that happened once or twice if ever for the project. Like, maybe wait until you actually had a couple of slop PRs before spending time, energy, and political capital on an AI contribution policy.

by MaKey 9mo ago

Overall I think Code of Conducts are a net negative. Alleged violations of them seem to be used to lend credibility to actions that otherwise would be hard(er) to justify.

calvinmorrison 9mo ago

This is nothing to do with Code of Conduct and just one business chosing not to do business with another.

micromacrofoot 9mo ago

This is like saying "overall laws are bad" because whoever is applying them is doing so maliciously. Even in the absence of COC companies like this always find a way to justify this sort of pressure. If not a COC, it's a TOS or NDA or whatever document acronym you can find.

mikkupikku 9mo ago
Nobody would accept the rule of law if we didn't all know the alternative was the local bullies with the most friends and guns declaring themselves warlords and selling your family into slavery. An open source project without a CoC on the other hand is quite normal and harmless. Maybe some people sometimes get their feelings hurt, but CoCs obviously don't prevent that anyway. The whole thing is dumb.
tpmoney 9mo ago
I would argue that laws are “bad” if there’s no way to get a proper hearing when you’re accused of violating them. Laws should constrain both sides of the law (the person subject to them and the person enforcing them) otherwise they’re just arbitrary rules by the person with more power. And while that’s a perfectly valid way to run something, it’s dishonest to dress “arbitrary personal decisions” up in the trappings of law. And realistically that applies to all the things you listed, COC, NDA, TOS etc. But if someone can just drag out a law and vaguely accuse someone else of violating that law and then enforce a punishment with no way for the accused to get a hearing or present their case and have a real chance to prevail, then yes I would say the law is bad.

seanhunter 9mo ago

Overall I wish we lived in a world where they are not needed. But in every community, some people are assholes so they are often needed.

MaKey 9mo ago
Communities were doing just fine without a CoC up until they became a trend. People got banned too but the moderators couldn't hide behind a CoC to justify questionable decisions.
- KaiserPro 9mo ago
  > Communities were doing just fine without a CoC I mean kinda, but also not. CoCs just codify what the moderators think. Even Hacker news has a CoC: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html its just called a guide. A community has to have a set of rules which most people agree on. One of the most common attacks in a moderated forum is "Oh but X did Y" and "thats not fair X can do it" A CoC can be a simple way to "tap the sign" when someone is being a dick. It also allows communities to set expectations at the start, not after someone has transgressed and pissed in the well. In an ideal world, you'd just have a thing that says "don't be a dick" but that doesn't work for many and hilarious reasons. Engineers who who either have a god complex, parsing issues or empathy gaps (either learnt or inherent ) are notoriously difficult as a community to keep from getting into frothy arguments that colour everything and give off a bad smell. CoCs are a tool, that can sometimes help.
  - none_to_remain 9mo ago
    I perceive "guidelines" or "rules" having a very different connotation compared to a "code of conduct." See for, example, the SQLite team adopting the Rule of St. Benedict as their "Code of Conduct," getting criticized for it, and changing it to a "Code of Ethics" in accordance with the Rule about seeking accommodation with your adversaries.
    - 9mo ago

15155 9mo ago

They're a weapon of "social justice" - 90% of CoC rules are common-sense stuff that doesn't have to be said, combined with one or two "progressive" ideas shoehorned in.

swed420 9mo ago
And "social justice" is often a weapon of capital interests in disguise.
- mikkupikku 9mo ago
  That's why it was kicked into overdrive during/after Occupy Wall Street. The message of bankers screwing over everybody else in the country had clear broad appeal and people were paying attention and talking about the issue. Then, newspapers started reporting that the OWS protestors were using a "progressive stack" to silence white men and give all the talking time to the freak squad... I don't even know if that narrative had any truth or if the newspapers made it up whole cloth, but regardless it was something most American's certainly could never agree with, so OWS was overnight transformed into a social justice freak show in the eyes of the public and people stopped talking about bankers.
fortran77 9mo ago
I was once told I couldn’t present a calorie counting/diet app at an Elm conference because it violated their CoC about discrimination based on “body size”.
- MaKey 9mo ago
  That's just absurd.
KaiserPro 9mo ago
Mate, thats just rules. rules you don't agree with.
- 15155 9mo ago

chasd00 9mo ago

It just dawned on me that CoC docs are basically HR for open source. Point to a violation and voila, that person is gone. “Sorry, nothing personal, CoC violation, there’s nothing I can do”.

MaKey 9mo ago
Exactly. Without a CoC the persons making hard decisions have to stand behind them. With a CoC they can hide behind the CoC and wash their hands in innocence. This lowers the barrier for making questionable decisions and overall decreases honesty. We've seen this with the suspension of Python core maintainer Tim Peters.
- allreduce 9mo ago
  Honestly, this is the first argument against CoCs I've seen that I agree with. They do kinda act as a tool to deflect responsibility.
- echelon 9mo ago
  I had never heard of the Tim Peters incident, but I just googled it. (It's not on his Wikipedia page.) I found this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1ep4dbt/the_shameful_defenestration_of_tim/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1ep4dbt/the_shamefu... Which points to this: https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestr... This characterizes it as completely unfair, and the /r/python community seems to agree. Is there a rebuttal from the other side?
  - rpdillon 9mo ago
    Wow, I somehow missed all that. That's horrendous. I've always felt that a code of conduct is a tool for bureaucrats to hide behind, and episode doesn't alter my view. Thanks for sharing.

pamcake 9mo ago

There are bad CoCs and ways to abuse them and people who do. That doesn't mean the concept of setting social expectations for a collaborative project is inherently bad. Same as for discussion forum guidelines and moderation. No CoC is better than a bad CoC or one where interpretation is centralized to someone with an agenda. But many times a decent CoC can help newcomers in reading the room and support well-intended moderators in making judgement calls. I also think good CoCs are small and mostly reactive. It's premature social engineering to spend energy on formulating general policies for things that happened once or twice if ever for the project. Like, maybe wait until you actually had a couple of slop PRs before spending time, energy, and political capital on an AI contribution policy.