6 ms·

Wouldn't be the first time CoC was used as a lame attempt to harm open source. Thanks for speaking up.

by swed420 10mo ago

allreduce 10mo ago
I find it weird to jump to this from the scarce information we have. "Someone did a CoC violation" is just a way for an org to say "someone was an asshole to such an extent it was driving other people away or getting us into legal trouble", with the manner of assholery defined in the CoC. 9/10 times it is nothing sinister. Of course right now we just don't know what happened.
- jacquesm 10mo ago
  The one thing I know is that for threads such as this one it is best to ignore all of the stuff from accounts made just for the purpose of participating in the thread.
  - xyzzyxy 10mo ago
    In this case, given the topic of this thread is targeted harassment in response to public social media criticism, I think it's understandable that some folks might like to participate anonymously to avoid becoming a future target.
    - jajuuka 10mo ago
      You are by far the least subtle sock puppet account.
    - vasco 10mo ago
      Nonsense, if you feel strongly about the subject comment in your main account. Otherwise this is just taken as "oh the guys are arguing through side accounts now". Also this is not some russian mafia drug deal gone wrong, it's nerds disagreeing on the internet.
- grugagag 10mo ago
  Are you HR or something?
  - allreduce 10mo ago
    Nah but I recognize that HR, unfortunately, has to exist for larger organizations. Unless you have an infinitely wise and patient dictator who can just say "you're an asshole, you go" and always make the right call or something.
- swed420 10mo ago
  > I find it weird to jump to this from the scarce information we have. If you look at how I worded my comment, you'll see I didn't jump to any conclusion. Only you have, apparently. (edit: Also unsurprising to see your account is two days old)
  - allreduce 10mo ago
    [dead]
- doubleunplussed 10mo ago
  > "Someone did a CoC violation" is just a way for an org to say "someone was an asshole [...]" Not even that, since so many CoCs are vague enough that someone unprincipled wielding them could be using them for petty interpersonal disputes. Unless I already have reason to trust the accuser, when I see "CoC violation" it tells me there's drama but it doesn't tell me who the asshole is.
MaKey 10mo ago
Overall I think Code of Conducts are a net negative. Alleged violations of them seem to be used to lend credibility to actions that otherwise would be hard(er) to justify.
- calvinmorrison 10mo ago
  This is nothing to do with Code of Conduct and just one business chosing not to do business with another.
- micromacrofoot 10mo ago
  This is like saying "overall laws are bad" because whoever is applying them is doing so maliciously. Even in the absence of COC companies like this always find a way to justify this sort of pressure. If not a COC, it's a TOS or NDA or whatever document acronym you can find.
  - mikkupikku 9mo ago
    Nobody would accept the rule of law if we didn't all know the alternative was the local bullies with the most friends and guns declaring themselves warlords and selling your family into slavery. An open source project without a CoC on the other hand is quite normal and harmless. Maybe some people sometimes get their feelings hurt, but CoCs obviously don't prevent that anyway. The whole thing is dumb.
  - tpmoney 9mo ago
    I would argue that laws are “bad” if there’s no way to get a proper hearing when you’re accused of violating them. Laws should constrain both sides of the law (the person subject to them and the person enforcing them) otherwise they’re just arbitrary rules by the person with more power. And while that’s a perfectly valid way to run something, it’s dishonest to dress “arbitrary personal decisions” up in the trappings of law. And realistically that applies to all the things you listed, COC, NDA, TOS etc. But if someone can just drag out a law and vaguely accuse someone else of violating that law and then enforce a punishment with no way for the accused to get a hearing or present their case and have a real chance to prevail, then yes I would say the law is bad.

Wouldn't be the first time CoC was used as a lame attempt to harm open source. Thanks for speaking up.

by swed420 10mo ago

Wouldn't be the first time CoC was used as a lame attempt to harm open source. Thanks for speaking up.

I find it weird to jump to this from the scarce information we have. "Someone did a CoC violation" is just a way for an org to say "someone was an asshole to such an extent it was driving other people away or getting us into legal trouble", with the manner of assholery defined in the CoC. 9/10 times it is nothing sinister. Of course right now we just don't know what happened.

jacquesm 10mo ago
The one thing I know is that for threads such as this one it is best to ignore all of the stuff from accounts made just for the purpose of participating in the thread.
- xyzzyxy 10mo ago
  In this case, given the topic of this thread is targeted harassment in response to public social media criticism, I think it's understandable that some folks might like to participate anonymously to avoid becoming a future target.
  - jajuuka 10mo ago
    You are by far the least subtle sock puppet account.
  - vasco 10mo ago
    Nonsense, if you feel strongly about the subject comment in your main account. Otherwise this is just taken as "oh the guys are arguing through side accounts now". Also this is not some russian mafia drug deal gone wrong, it's nerds disagreeing on the internet.
grugagag 10mo ago
Are you HR or something?
- allreduce 10mo ago
  Nah but I recognize that HR, unfortunately, has to exist for larger organizations. Unless you have an infinitely wise and patient dictator who can just say "you're an asshole, you go" and always make the right call or something.
swed420 10mo ago
> I find it weird to jump to this from the scarce information we have. If you look at how I worded my comment, you'll see I didn't jump to any conclusion. Only you have, apparently. (edit: Also unsurprising to see your account is two days old)
- allreduce 10mo ago
  [dead]
doubleunplussed 10mo ago
> "Someone did a CoC violation" is just a way for an org to say "someone was an asshole [...]" Not even that, since so many CoCs are vague enough that someone unprincipled wielding them could be using them for petty interpersonal disputes. Unless I already have reason to trust the accuser, when I see "CoC violation" it tells me there's drama but it doesn't tell me who the asshole is.

MaKey 10mo ago

Overall I think Code of Conducts are a net negative. Alleged violations of them seem to be used to lend credibility to actions that otherwise would be hard(er) to justify.

calvinmorrison 10mo ago
This is nothing to do with Code of Conduct and just one business chosing not to do business with another.
micromacrofoot 10mo ago
This is like saying "overall laws are bad" because whoever is applying them is doing so maliciously. Even in the absence of COC companies like this always find a way to justify this sort of pressure. If not a COC, it's a TOS or NDA or whatever document acronym you can find.
- mikkupikku 9mo ago
  Nobody would accept the rule of law if we didn't all know the alternative was the local bullies with the most friends and guns declaring themselves warlords and selling your family into slavery. An open source project without a CoC on the other hand is quite normal and harmless. Maybe some people sometimes get their feelings hurt, but CoCs obviously don't prevent that anyway. The whole thing is dumb.
- tpmoney 9mo ago
  I would argue that laws are “bad” if there’s no way to get a proper hearing when you’re accused of violating them. Laws should constrain both sides of the law (the person subject to them and the person enforcing them) otherwise they’re just arbitrary rules by the person with more power. And while that’s a perfectly valid way to run something, it’s dishonest to dress “arbitrary personal decisions” up in the trappings of law. And realistically that applies to all the things you listed, COC, NDA, TOS etc. But if someone can just drag out a law and vaguely accuse someone else of violating that law and then enforce a punishment with no way for the accused to get a hearing or present their case and have a real chance to prevail, then yes I would say the law is bad.