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"Why stop there" is often a reason why nothing gets done. Why do small if you can go big right away? Because going big right away is costly (in social cost, in

"Why stop there" is often a reason why nothing gets done. Why do small if you can go big right away? Because going big right away is costly (in social cost, in convincing, in how much people need to change behavior, ...) and that prevents people from doing it in the first place because the threshold is high. Apathy is the result. Better to take a small step first, then get used to the measure / the cost, then have a next phase where you do more. Everybody makes fun of paper straws. Or they made fun of wind power when it was barely 0.1% of energy production. Why not immediately demand 20 years ago that all single use plastic is banned? Or that only wind and solar are allowed? Because the step is too big, it would not be accepted. You need to take one step at a time. That's even a viable strategy against procrastination. There is this big daunting task. So much to do! Oh my, better scroll a little tiktok first. No, just take a small first step of the task. Very small, no big commitment. Then maybe do some tiktok, but the little first step won't be too much. Result is, you have an immediate sense of accomplishment and actually made progress, maybe even stay hooked with more steps of the ultimately big task.

bigstrat2003 9mo ago
> Everybody makes fun of paper straws. Yeah, because they suck. Uh, pun not intended. Paper straws get somewhat soggy and feel bad in your mouth. They are inferior to the plastic straws they purport to replace, so people resist them as much as they can. If you want to actually make a difference with an environmental effort, you need to make something superior. Nobody makes fun of LED light bulbs because (up front cost aside) they are wildly superior to incandescent. People actually like having LED bulbs and seek them out. The same cannot be said, and likely never will be said, of paper straws.
- jquery 9mo ago
  I'm convinced paper straws are a psy-op by the plastics industry to make us hate environmentalists.
  - hexbin010 9mo ago
    Or 4D chess by the environmentalists so we go without straws entirely Classic replacement of something good with something terrible so customers opt out
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 9mo ago
    No it's to punish us when it isn't us causing the alleged plastic problem. When the orders went out all the western media took holidays to the far east to film garbage filled rivers in india, the philippines, indonesia. Your disposable plastic straw wasn't ending up there. Your plastic bottle might have been but that's only because of the recycling scam. It should have been burned like the oil it is.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- piyushpr134 9mo ago
  paper straws do not make any sense any way you look at it. Are we saying that we are okay to cut trees to make straws when we could make them out of petroleum ? Moreover, paper straws are not even recyclable due to water content which makes them soggy. Plastic ones are almost 100% recyclable Most importantly, unlike plastic straws, they are laced with glue and other chemicals which gets ingested.
  - injidup 9mo ago
    Soggy is not a problem.Recycling paper involves wetting it to loose the fibres and then reforming it. It's how paper is made.
    - ulrikrasmussen 9mo ago
      But usually paper and cardboard that has been in contact with food is not recyclable because it contaminates the batch. That's why pizza boxes also cannot go into the cardboard/paper fraction.
      - vanviegen 9mo ago
        No, that's because pizza boxes are contaminated with fat. That messes up the paper recycling process. Water is fine.
        GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
        Man, if that's the problem then I can only assume any fast food box is not recyclable too?
        teiferer 9mo ago
        The point of paper fast food boxes is not to recycle them but to have no trash in the end as they just burn or rot, all in a sustainable way. In contrast to plastic.
    - 9mo ago
- repeekad 9mo ago
  Most paper straws use PFAS, meaning we’re actively composting PFAS in a fantasy effort to feel good about our waste without actually giving anything up https://fortune.com/well/2023/08/24/paper-straws-harmful-forever-chemicals-plastic-straws/ https://fortune.com/well/2023/08/24/paper-straws-harmful-for...
  - qmr 9mo ago
    Thanks just the dystopian news I needed today. What a stupid joke.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- philipwhiuk 9mo ago
  > Nobody makes fun of LED light bulbs because (up front cost aside) they are wildly superior to incandescent There was huge resistance to wiping out the inefficient bulbs in the UK. Many many people stockpiled them.
  - HWR_14 9mo ago
    At switching time, the affordable option was compact fluorescents. Which did suck.
- simgt 9mo ago
  Good that they suck, people might realize that they may as well refuse the straw, drink from the glass and that their life is exactly as comfortable as before the ban.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- woadwarrior01 9mo ago
  > Nobody makes fun of LED light bulbs because (up front cost aside) they are wildly superior to incandescent. There's burgeoning movement called "PWM sensitive"[1] that's opposed to (cheap) LED lights. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/
  - Liftyee 9mo ago
    The frequencies that they claim affect them are disputable but the flickering in some cheap LED lights is real. Badly/cheaply designed electronics can have flicker as bad as 50 Hz if they use half bridge diode rectification only (e.g. that time I was passing through Geneva airport and the Christmas lights flickered in my peripheral vision)
    - evandrofisico 9mo ago
      yep, i had one led stripe with a controller with a flickering that was kinda invisible to the eye, but very noticeable on camera.
- triceratops 9mo ago
  I don't understand the moaning and bellyaching about straws. Are people that bad at drinking from cups? If you aren't a toddler or bed-ridden patient in a hospital (EDIT: or anyone else with physical conditions that necessitate a straw) you should be able to drink without a straw.
  - remove-resolve 9mo ago
    Mouth cancer. I can live a normal life EXCEPT I can't allow liquids to touch my lips. Without straws I have to go through agony just to be minimally hydrated. Paper straws get stuck to my necrotic flesh and tear it off. There are a variety of conditions that straws are helpful for. A lot of people have health issues that make it difficult to swallow. A lot of people have mouth and lip conditions. What I don't understand is all the moaning and groaning about the smallest piece of plastic that helps a LOT of disabled people have a semblance of normalcy, when here are much larger plastic fish to fry. We use plastic for basically everything but people have tunnel visioned on a minor piece that actually helps people. It's myopic.
    - triceratops 9mo ago
      I thought "bed-ridden patient" covered everyone who is physically unable to drink without straws due to disabilities or other conditions. I guess that wasn't clear enough though. My apologies. I've edited my comment now. > What I don't understand is all the moaning and groaning about the smallest piece of plastic that helps a LOT of disabled people have a semblance of normalcy You have to admit it's been turned into a culture war point by people who mostly don't need straws. They just need boogeymen to rile up people against environmentalism in general.
  - pixl97 9mo ago
    >Are people that bad at drinking from cups? You ever had the ice in the bottom of the cup turn into a large chunk then hit you in the face?
    - triceratops 9mo ago
locknitpicker 9mo ago
> Why do small if you can go big right away? You're missing the fact that this sort of infrastructure requires a robust business case. That's why scale is critical. Recycling bottles and cans has a solid business case. Glass and aluminium are straight forward to recycle at an industrial scale, but would be pointless if they were kept at an artisanal scale. Any moralistic argument is pointless if you can't put together a coherent business plan. The people you need to work and the energy you need to spend to gather and process whatever you want to process needs to come from somewhere. How many vape pens do you need to recycle per month to support employing a single person? Guilt trips from random people online don't pay that person's rent, do they? > Everybody makes fun of paper straws. This is specious reasoning. The core issue are tradeoffs, and what you have to tolerate or abdicate. Paper straws are a red herring because the main criticism was that, at the start, they failed to work as straws. So you were left with an industrial demand to produce a product that failed to work and was still disposable. If you look at food packaging and containers, you are faced with more thought-provoking tradeoffs. Paper containers don't help preserve food as well as plastic ones. Packaging deteriorates if exposed to any form of moisture, and contaminates food so quickly tk the point you can taste cardboard if you leave them overnight. This leads to shorter shelf life and more food waste. Is food waste not an ecological problem? How do you manage those tradeoffs?
- pixl97 9mo ago
  In theory plastic food 'waste' could be far more recyclable if it were standardized on plastics that were recyclable and we had a deposit system. Needless to say the food and drink industry has spent an epic fuckton on lobbying to ensure that doesn't happen. Remember to give a proper fuck you to the Coca-cola corp about this.

bigstrat2003 9mo ago

> Everybody makes fun of paper straws. Yeah, because they suck. Uh, pun not intended. Paper straws get somewhat soggy and feel bad in your mouth. They are inferior to the plastic straws they purport to replace, so people resist them as much as they can. If you want to actually make a difference with an environmental effort, you need to make something superior. Nobody makes fun of LED light bulbs because (up front cost aside) they are wildly superior to incandescent. People actually like having LED bulbs and seek them out. The same cannot be said, and likely never will be said, of paper straws.

jquery 9mo ago
I'm convinced paper straws are a psy-op by the plastics industry to make us hate environmentalists.
- hexbin010 9mo ago
  Or 4D chess by the environmentalists so we go without straws entirely Classic replacement of something good with something terrible so customers opt out
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 9mo ago
  No it's to punish us when it isn't us causing the alleged plastic problem. When the orders went out all the western media took holidays to the far east to film garbage filled rivers in india, the philippines, indonesia. Your disposable plastic straw wasn't ending up there. Your plastic bottle might have been but that's only because of the recycling scam. It should have been burned like the oil it is.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
piyushpr134 9mo ago
paper straws do not make any sense any way you look at it. Are we saying that we are okay to cut trees to make straws when we could make them out of petroleum ? Moreover, paper straws are not even recyclable due to water content which makes them soggy. Plastic ones are almost 100% recyclable Most importantly, unlike plastic straws, they are laced with glue and other chemicals which gets ingested.
- injidup 9mo ago
  Soggy is not a problem.Recycling paper involves wetting it to loose the fibres and then reforming it. It's how paper is made.
  - ulrikrasmussen 9mo ago
    But usually paper and cardboard that has been in contact with food is not recyclable because it contaminates the batch. That's why pizza boxes also cannot go into the cardboard/paper fraction.
    - vanviegen 9mo ago
      No, that's because pizza boxes are contaminated with fat. That messes up the paper recycling process. Water is fine.
      - GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
        Man, if that's the problem then I can only assume any fast food box is not recyclable too?
        teiferer 9mo ago
        The point of paper fast food boxes is not to recycle them but to have no trash in the end as they just burn or rot, all in a sustainable way. In contrast to plastic.
  - 9mo ago
repeekad 9mo ago
Most paper straws use PFAS, meaning we’re actively composting PFAS in a fantasy effort to feel good about our waste without actually giving anything up https://fortune.com/well/2023/08/24/paper-straws-harmful-forever-chemicals-plastic-straws/ https://fortune.com/well/2023/08/24/paper-straws-harmful-for...
- qmr 9mo ago
  Thanks just the dystopian news I needed today. What a stupid joke.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
philipwhiuk 9mo ago
> Nobody makes fun of LED light bulbs because (up front cost aside) they are wildly superior to incandescent There was huge resistance to wiping out the inefficient bulbs in the UK. Many many people stockpiled them.
- HWR_14 9mo ago
  At switching time, the affordable option was compact fluorescents. Which did suck.
simgt 9mo ago
Good that they suck, people might realize that they may as well refuse the straw, drink from the glass and that their life is exactly as comfortable as before the ban.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
woadwarrior01 9mo ago
> Nobody makes fun of LED light bulbs because (up front cost aside) they are wildly superior to incandescent. There's burgeoning movement called "PWM sensitive"[1] that's opposed to (cheap) LED lights. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/
- Liftyee 9mo ago
  The frequencies that they claim affect them are disputable but the flickering in some cheap LED lights is real. Badly/cheaply designed electronics can have flicker as bad as 50 Hz if they use half bridge diode rectification only (e.g. that time I was passing through Geneva airport and the Christmas lights flickered in my peripheral vision)
  - evandrofisico 9mo ago
    yep, i had one led stripe with a controller with a flickering that was kinda invisible to the eye, but very noticeable on camera.
triceratops 9mo ago
I don't understand the moaning and bellyaching about straws. Are people that bad at drinking from cups? If you aren't a toddler or bed-ridden patient in a hospital (EDIT: or anyone else with physical conditions that necessitate a straw) you should be able to drink without a straw.
- remove-resolve 9mo ago
  Mouth cancer. I can live a normal life EXCEPT I can't allow liquids to touch my lips. Without straws I have to go through agony just to be minimally hydrated. Paper straws get stuck to my necrotic flesh and tear it off. There are a variety of conditions that straws are helpful for. A lot of people have health issues that make it difficult to swallow. A lot of people have mouth and lip conditions. What I don't understand is all the moaning and groaning about the smallest piece of plastic that helps a LOT of disabled people have a semblance of normalcy, when here are much larger plastic fish to fry. We use plastic for basically everything but people have tunnel visioned on a minor piece that actually helps people. It's myopic.
  - triceratops 9mo ago
    I thought "bed-ridden patient" covered everyone who is physically unable to drink without straws due to disabilities or other conditions. I guess that wasn't clear enough though. My apologies. I've edited my comment now. > What I don't understand is all the moaning and groaning about the smallest piece of plastic that helps a LOT of disabled people have a semblance of normalcy You have to admit it's been turned into a culture war point by people who mostly don't need straws. They just need boogeymen to rile up people against environmentalism in general.
- pixl97 9mo ago
  >Are people that bad at drinking from cups? You ever had the ice in the bottom of the cup turn into a large chunk then hit you in the face?
  - triceratops 9mo ago

locknitpicker 9mo ago

> Why do small if you can go big right away? You're missing the fact that this sort of infrastructure requires a robust business case. That's why scale is critical. Recycling bottles and cans has a solid business case. Glass and aluminium are straight forward to recycle at an industrial scale, but would be pointless if they were kept at an artisanal scale. Any moralistic argument is pointless if you can't put together a coherent business plan. The people you need to work and the energy you need to spend to gather and process whatever you want to process needs to come from somewhere. How many vape pens do you need to recycle per month to support employing a single person? Guilt trips from random people online don't pay that person's rent, do they? > Everybody makes fun of paper straws. This is specious reasoning. The core issue are tradeoffs, and what you have to tolerate or abdicate. Paper straws are a red herring because the main criticism was that, at the start, they failed to work as straws. So you were left with an industrial demand to produce a product that failed to work and was still disposable. If you look at food packaging and containers, you are faced with more thought-provoking tradeoffs. Paper containers don't help preserve food as well as plastic ones. Packaging deteriorates if exposed to any form of moisture, and contaminates food so quickly tk the point you can taste cardboard if you leave them overnight. This leads to shorter shelf life and more food waste. Is food waste not an ecological problem? How do you manage those tradeoffs?

pixl97 9mo ago
In theory plastic food 'waste' could be far more recyclable if it were standardized on plastics that were recyclable and we had a deposit system. Needless to say the food and drink industry has spent an epic fuckton on lobbying to ensure that doesn't happen. Remember to give a proper fuck you to the Coca-cola corp about this.