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> Pay for products that produce open source software and hardware. Pay artists that put out libre/free work. Demand projects that ask for money and "will open s

by goku12 9mo ago

> Pay for products that produce open source software and hardware. Pay artists that put out libre/free work. Demand projects that ask for money and "will open source in the future" open source now before taking your money. This is the most important part. The markets can be shifted in our favor if the consumers unite and vote with our wallets. Even the biggest MNCs can't resist the demands by a united consumer front. Well known brands have been disappeared after they offended their customer base. This is very difficult in practice, but not impossible. It will need a cultural shift among consumers and that will need a lot of grassroots work by a group of dedicated individuals. But it has been done before - for example, consider the role FSF played in making free software so common. To begin with, consumers have to be taught to believe in and rely on our collective bargaining power, instead of reluctantly accepting exploitative corporate bs. The next will be to take smart decisions on each product. Obviously, only a small group within the society would know what is harmful and what we really need. We should develop a culture where the concerns and recommendations of the subject experts are quickly disseminated among the larger consumer community. I know the above sounds too ambitious. But it's not nearly the hardest goal anyone has achieved through sheer will. Whenever I raise this point in relation to any specific topic on HN, someone always replies with a cynical, dismissive and defeatist take, often arguing that the consumer-hostile product has the 'market demand'. They rarely address the market manipulation that the manufacturers resort to, and the fact that those poor product choices are the result of missing consumer vigilance. Besides it's easy to sound smart by scoffing at someone else's suggestions. But it takes hard work to make a positive impact on society with an original idea.

butvacuum 9mo ago
> This is the most important part. The markets can be shifted in our favor if the consumers unite and vote with our wallets. have you even glanced at what touching hardware manufacturing involves? The amount of NDAs alone ends this. anything with a smidge of processor performance requires it, same for virtually every method of manufacturing anything. also, FSF did jack squat.
- goku12 9mo ago
  > have you even glanced at what touching hardware manufacturing involves? The amount of NDAs alone ends this. Do you think all that came out of the vacuum? It was set into motion over several decades of gradual erosion of user rights. Ultimately, everything is subject to the laws of supply and demand. If you can't see that far, you're thinking a level too shallow to see the problem and possible solutions. > FSF did jack squat. People don't simply scorn at FSF or anyone else like this just because they don't like it. I guess that explains the sophistication of your arguments.
pjmlp 9mo ago
Consumers vote with their wallet buying disposable electronics at 1 euro shops kind of quality. This has to be legally enforced to turn around.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
palata 9mo ago
> The markets can be shifted in our favor if the consumers unite and vote with our wallets This is very naive. "We can solve the climate emergency if the consumers unite and stop living the way they live", sure. But obviously the consumers don't do that, even knowing that their children will die because of it.
- goku12 9mo ago
  This is exactly the cynical, dismissive and defeatist take that I was talking about. Yet, we have numerous examples of this dismissal being wrong. Right now, free software is something we take for granted. But you have no idea what sort of great achievement it was for the early pioneers. Microsoft even used to call it evil. > We can solve the climate emergency if the consumers unite and stop living the way they live This is wrong in two ways. The first is that it is a strawman. The consumers are the biggest emitters. The big corporations, militaries and billionaires are. Second, we did solve a related problem with market pressure - the stratospheric ozone depletion and the ozone hole. Again as I said before, it's easy to call it naive or scoff at it any number of ways. But people have achieved much harder goals. And that takes a lot of skill and effort.
  - palata 9mo ago
    > Second, we did solve a related problem with market pressure - the stratospheric ozone depletion and the ozone hole. If you think that the ozone problem was remotely of the same level of difficulty as climate change, then you don't understand the problem. > But people have achieved much harder goals. There is no much harder goal than surviving on Earth, and we are measurably not only completely failing, but we keep accelerating in the wrong direction! We are making it worse, faster everyday.
    - goku12 9mo ago
      > If you think that the ozone problem was remotely of the same level of difficulty as climate change, then you don't understand the problem. Ozone depletion too was a global problem that needed international coordination to solve. But the reason why it was solved while the climate change crisis wasn't, isn't the 'level of difficulty' you're referring to. It's the perverse economic incentives behind the centralized fossil fuel trade. Unlike ozone depltion, climate change issue was known at least as early as 1892. We had more than enough time to find and implement the solutions. But even today when we have viable long term solutions, the pervesion of global politics against them is splendidly evident. We really could have solved the climate change crisis if we wanted to. That's why I always emphasize shifting the market dynamics - the supply and demand balance. That's the only way we can overcome those perverse incentives. But people simply refuse to connect the dots that deep, instead preferring to insult those who do. And the reason is simple. It will break the comfort bubble that you're in, if you have to take some responsibility to solve it. > There is no much harder goal than surviving on Earth, and we are measurably not only completely failing, but we keep accelerating in the wrong direction! We are making it worse, faster everyday. If only there was/were some solution(s) for that.... Oh! Wait!

by goku12 9mo ago

butvacuum 9mo ago

> This is the most important part. The markets can be shifted in our favor if the consumers unite and vote with our wallets. have you even glanced at what touching hardware manufacturing involves? The amount of NDAs alone ends this. anything with a smidge of processor performance requires it, same for virtually every method of manufacturing anything. also, FSF did jack squat.

goku12 9mo ago
> have you even glanced at what touching hardware manufacturing involves? The amount of NDAs alone ends this. Do you think all that came out of the vacuum? It was set into motion over several decades of gradual erosion of user rights. Ultimately, everything is subject to the laws of supply and demand. If you can't see that far, you're thinking a level too shallow to see the problem and possible solutions. > FSF did jack squat. People don't simply scorn at FSF or anyone else like this just because they don't like it. I guess that explains the sophistication of your arguments.

pjmlp 9mo ago

Consumers vote with their wallet buying disposable electronics at 1 euro shops kind of quality. This has to be legally enforced to turn around.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

palata 9mo ago

> The markets can be shifted in our favor if the consumers unite and vote with our wallets This is very naive. "We can solve the climate emergency if the consumers unite and stop living the way they live", sure. But obviously the consumers don't do that, even knowing that their children will die because of it.

goku12 9mo ago
This is exactly the cynical, dismissive and defeatist take that I was talking about. Yet, we have numerous examples of this dismissal being wrong. Right now, free software is something we take for granted. But you have no idea what sort of great achievement it was for the early pioneers. Microsoft even used to call it evil. > We can solve the climate emergency if the consumers unite and stop living the way they live This is wrong in two ways. The first is that it is a strawman. The consumers are the biggest emitters. The big corporations, militaries and billionaires are. Second, we did solve a related problem with market pressure - the stratospheric ozone depletion and the ozone hole. Again as I said before, it's easy to call it naive or scoff at it any number of ways. But people have achieved much harder goals. And that takes a lot of skill and effort.
- palata 9mo ago
  > Second, we did solve a related problem with market pressure - the stratospheric ozone depletion and the ozone hole. If you think that the ozone problem was remotely of the same level of difficulty as climate change, then you don't understand the problem. > But people have achieved much harder goals. There is no much harder goal than surviving on Earth, and we are measurably not only completely failing, but we keep accelerating in the wrong direction! We are making it worse, faster everyday.
  - goku12 9mo ago
    > If you think that the ozone problem was remotely of the same level of difficulty as climate change, then you don't understand the problem. Ozone depletion too was a global problem that needed international coordination to solve. But the reason why it was solved while the climate change crisis wasn't, isn't the 'level of difficulty' you're referring to. It's the perverse economic incentives behind the centralized fossil fuel trade. Unlike ozone depltion, climate change issue was known at least as early as 1892. We had more than enough time to find and implement the solutions. But even today when we have viable long term solutions, the pervesion of global politics against them is splendidly evident. We really could have solved the climate change crisis if we wanted to. That's why I always emphasize shifting the market dynamics - the supply and demand balance. That's the only way we can overcome those perverse incentives. But people simply refuse to connect the dots that deep, instead preferring to insult those who do. And the reason is simple. It will break the comfort bubble that you're in, if you have to take some responsibility to solve it. > There is no much harder goal than surviving on Earth, and we are measurably not only completely failing, but we keep accelerating in the wrong direction! We are making it worse, faster everyday. If only there was/were some solution(s) for that.... Oh! Wait!