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I appreciate the acknowledgement about Elastic’s handling. On the timeline argument: I’m sceptical of extrapolating current rates to 150-year predictions. Orga
by dijit 10mo ago
I appreciate the acknowledgement about Elastic’s handling.
On the timeline argument: I’m sceptical of extrapolating current rates to 150-year predictions. Organisations change through leadership turnover, market pressure, and cultural shifts that don’t follow linear projections. But I take your point that gradualism has costs for those waiting.
Here’s where we differ: I don’t accept that we must choose between “discrimination now” and “discrimination for 150 years.” That’s a false binary. The solutions I mentioned aren’t just soft approaches; they’re structural changes that can accelerate equity without requiring us to accept discrimination as policy.
Your point about white men at the top not stepping down cuts both ways. If the existing leadership won’t make space voluntarily, and you implement demographic quotas, you’ve just created a system where different qualified people are blocked. People like me, who didn’t benefit from the original discrimination but are now paying for it.
I grew up in generational poverty. As far back as records go, my family has never held money or power. The people you’re describing as beneficiaries of historical privilege might share my demographic category, but we share nothing else. Class gets erased in these conversations, and that erasure makes the solutions less effective, not more.
What about the corrosion that’s already happened? I think about it constantly. But I don’t believe the answer is to corrode more people in the opposite direction and call it justice. That’s how you get radicalisation and backlash, not equity.
- amrocha 10mo agoI don’t even disagree with you about class, but to deal with that we need to deal with capitalism itself, which I’ve given up on at this point. So if this is the system we’re stuck with, and it’s an unfair system, then let’s at least make sure it’s equitably unfair. The goal is not to make sure the most qualified person gets the job. I actually think evaluating others fairly is impossible so that’s an impossible goal. Sorry if you feel that you got the short end of the stick. I got it too. Someone has to.
- dijit 10mo agoSounds like giving up. You’re arguing we should take turns being discriminated against because fixing the system is too hard. I’d rather actually try to reduce the total amount of discrimination instead of just spinning the wheel to see whose turn it is to lose. “Someone has to get the short end” isn’t wisdom: it’s defeatism, and toxic at that.
- amrocha 10mo agoThe issue is not “discrimination is happening”. The issue is that systematic discrimination has biased outcomes and under represented certain demographics, and that needs to be addressed. Discrimination against individuals is not a problem.
- dijit 10mo ago“Discrimination against individuals is not a problem” is quite possibly the most dystopian sentence I’ve read on HN. I’m one of those individuals. So are the women and minorities you claim to be helping. We’re not statistical abstractions to be shuffled around in service of demographic targets. If your solution to systematic discrimination requires you to declare that discriminating against individuals doesn’t matter, you’ve lost the plot entirely.
- amrocha 10mo agoI can say the same thing at you. If your solution to large demographics experiencing systematic discrimination over decades leading to worse outcomes is to tell them that from now on it’ll be different but that all the disadvantages they experienced will not be dealt with then you’re either insane, or trying to disguise your bias.
- dijit 10mo agoYou literally just said discrimination against individuals isn't a problem. I'm objecting to that specifically. I've proposed structural solutions throughout this thread. You've proposed accepting discrimination and deciding whose turn it is to experience it. These are not morally equivalent positions.
- amrocha 10mo agoNo you haven’t. You’ve offered platitudes. “I think about it all the time” ok, what are you actually going to do about it? The grow the pie approaches you mentioned only works while the pie is growing, and we’ve had layoffs for the past 2 years. What is your solution now that the pie isn’t getting bigger? It sure sounds like your solution is telling people to wait 150 years and hope the problem solves itself.