5 ms·

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to co

by rada 14y ago

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. (If you think that's an overly dramatic statement, you are probably not an immigrant from some place you really don't want to be, like me, or someone whose family will quite literally starve if you don't send them money). People endure getting beat up by their husbands for 5 years straight for the sake of a green card, so there is no doubt they will endure long working hours and much more. 3. The whole "shortage of IT talent" hysteria is way overblown when you look at the actual numbers. Just one example, latest DICE salary report: http://media.dice.com/report/2012-2011-dice-salary-survey/ http://media.dice.com/report/2012-2011-dice-salary-survey/ Contrast the opening sentence: Technology professionals enjoyed their largest annual salary growth since 2008, according to the 2012-2011 Salary Survey from Dice, the leading career site for technology and engineering professionals. ... with the actual numbers: After two straight years of wages remaining nearly flat, tech professionals on average garnered salary increases of more than two percent, boosting their average annual wage to $81,327 from $79,384 in 2010. So, let's see. While the inflation is chugging along at ~3% per year, we get 2 flat years, followed by a 1% increase? So basically, we make less money each year? Is the tech industry an economic miracle? Are programmers the one must-have product whose prices get lower when it's in short supply and the buyers have pockets full of cash? Or is there a simpler explanation?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
chaostheory 14y ago
> 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. I can confirm this. A few of my former H1B coworkers described how an unscrupulous manager would take advantage of them by dangling a sponsorship carrot (for a green card if I remember correctly). None of them were very happy about it and most felt trapped.
- briandear 14y ago
  Cry me a river. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US. I worked in China and Korea for over six years and employer-specific visas are standard operating procedure. Don't like it, simply go home. "Slavery" is such hyperbole. Slavery in America pays a hell of a lot more than 'freedom' in New Delhi.
  - aapl 14y ago
    Hyperbole, true, but it's equally silly to say that things just fine because it's the same situation in China and Korea. Why not compare to Japan where work permits are not tied to an employer and if you lose your job you generally have at least 3 months to look for a new one? Or many European countries with similar or better terms?
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    > "Slavery" is such hyperbole. Slavery in America pays a hell of a lot more than 'freedom' in New Delhi. If you read more carefully I never wrote that; I was only replying to it. Moreover you're exaggerating the original post. Anyways I'm just providing a different point of view, to which most people on HN are more open to. > Cry me a river. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US. Coming from the US middle class to work in another country is different from coming from the middle class in India (or another 3rd world country) to work in the US. They don't have as much economic freedom (or international mobility) as we do. > Don't like it, simply go home. That's the problem. Most of them like living here. Some of them don't really have much of choice either given how many family members they have to support. I'm sure there are a lot of companies and managers that treat them well here. Unfortunately I'm also pretty sure that there are a lot of companies and manager that take advantage of them as well (i.e. work extra hours under the table and I'll see about sponsoring you for a green card.) Having a hard time switching companies really sucks. Given your work experience in both China and Korea, I would be surprised if you didn't experience some of that as well. However, unlike most H1B workers in the US; you probably have better options when you come back home.
notlisted 14y ago
Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_mark_krikorian_cis/ http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been in a managerial capacity for at least 1 year out of the preceding 3 years. As @rada indicated, the cost savings aspect alluded to are more often than not the result of lower age ranges and NOT just from wage discrimination. Also note that if salaries are lower than what one would expect, it's because the prevailing wage number is lower than one might expect, simply because is is defined as the median wage for that position across the STATE, which would explain why prevailing wages are often much lower that what's "prevailing" in metro areas like NYC. (disclosure: IANAL, and I'm not 100% sure this is still the case, but I think it is) One more thing to realize is that H1B workers and L1 workers PAY TAXES in the USA, BUT have NO rights to unemployment if they lose their job, nor to retirement benefits later in life etc. UNLESS they make it to the 40 points limit. At 3-4 points a year, this will typically take 10+ years and thus makes it near impossible with max. duration of visas, even if you 'stack' L1 and H1B (years on L1 add towards 6 year maximum of H1B). In short: the H1B workers fill the coffers of all non-visa workers without the option to withdraw their contribution in the future, unless they become citizens or marry a US spouse. Note that even if they do 8naturalize or marry, they'll need to get to this 40 point level to obtain retirement benefits. Can't find a link, but have the notifications from the social security administration in my files somewhere. I'll be honest: I would not wish an H1B job on my worst enemy. I consider it modern-day slavery because you are beholden to your employer. These days it's not as bad as in the early 2000's, where you were forced to leave within 10 days of losing your job, but it's still not an easy or secure life. Finally, a nice little overview comparing H1B and L1: http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-h1b-visa-comparison.html http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-h1b-visa-comparison....
- rada 14y ago
  I am very confused. My source is a Dice salaries survey, and to refute said source, you link to a website trashing some guy named Mark Krikorian? Did you reply to my comment by mistake? (1) Your link is to America's Voice, a Washington DC-based pro-immigration lobby organization, hardly an objective source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_Voice_(lobby) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_Voice_(lobby)
prostoalex 14y ago
"tech professionals" usually bundles software engineers, system administrators, network administrators, and sometimes "business analysts" whose job it is to produce a report in Access. Some of these sectors experienced severe declines, e.g., companies hosting their email with Google instead of advertising for an MCSE and Exchange administrator position, so the pay for some of the sectors adjusted accordingly.
- rada 14y ago
  Web developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States.html http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States... Mobile developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=Unit... Senior Android developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=Uni... Junior Java developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1... Node.js: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+State... No matter what you plug in, you will see 2-year inflation-adjusted increases in the vicinity of 0%. Even better, go ahead and play around with same title, different seniority. Junior iOS programmer: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=junior++ios+programmer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=junior++ios+programmer&l... Senior iOS programmer: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=senior++ios+programmer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=senior++ios+programmer&l... See how juniors get raises, while seniors get flat-lined? That's the downward pressure of H1Bs as well as evidence of buyers' (hiring managers) actual purchasing behavior markedly different from "we can't find anyone who can do basic fizz buzz! we need people with skillz!".
  - prostoalex 14y ago
    Wouldn't this affect everybody across the board? I think the senior salary flat-lining and junior salary growing is pretty much the law of nature in any occupation - there's a salary band for a given skill, and those who start at the bottom and are any good progress fast, those who start at the bottom and are no good drop out of the race and go do something else, and senior people pretty much know they're at the top of salary range and need to move into management or open up their own consulting firm.
untog 14y ago
Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. As a current H1B holder, I have to disagree with that. I've just completed my second visa transfer, to my third job since moving to the US. I have had zero problems doing so- it requires some patience on the part of your future employer and while I've been lucky with past employers and not had to worry, you can also file the transfer without telling your current employer.
- shn 14y ago
  Unless you are a permanent resident hopeful what you say is correct. For a lengthy period of green card process does not allow portability of the GC application. I can hardly imagine anyone who has H1B but not has a GC application in the process or about to make that application. At that point visa and the GC application becomes a golden handcuff. If shit hit the fan you are politely reminded of this. It did for me when I was caught in the middle of a power struggle in the company and asked of my loyalty. Employers are not stupid to remind you this (productivity tanks), generally it goes very silent, but if they have to they will remind you, don't worry about that eventuality.
  - untog 14y ago
    Very true, but the way I see it is that I've been given ~4 years to find the 'right' position for me. Now that I have done that, I am happy to be "handcuffed" in order to get a green card, because I know my company isn't a ridiculous parody of The Office.

by rada 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

chaostheory 14y ago

> 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. I can confirm this. A few of my former H1B coworkers described how an unscrupulous manager would take advantage of them by dangling a sponsorship carrot (for a green card if I remember correctly). None of them were very happy about it and most felt trapped.

briandear 14y ago
Cry me a river. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US. I worked in China and Korea for over six years and employer-specific visas are standard operating procedure. Don't like it, simply go home. "Slavery" is such hyperbole. Slavery in America pays a hell of a lot more than 'freedom' in New Delhi.
- aapl 14y ago
  Hyperbole, true, but it's equally silly to say that things just fine because it's the same situation in China and Korea. Why not compare to Japan where work permits are not tied to an employer and if you lose your job you generally have at least 3 months to look for a new one? Or many European countries with similar or better terms?
- chaostheory 14y ago
  > "Slavery" is such hyperbole. Slavery in America pays a hell of a lot more than 'freedom' in New Delhi. If you read more carefully I never wrote that; I was only replying to it. Moreover you're exaggerating the original post. Anyways I'm just providing a different point of view, to which most people on HN are more open to. > Cry me a river. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US. Coming from the US middle class to work in another country is different from coming from the middle class in India (or another 3rd world country) to work in the US. They don't have as much economic freedom (or international mobility) as we do. > Don't like it, simply go home. That's the problem. Most of them like living here. Some of them don't really have much of choice either given how many family members they have to support. I'm sure there are a lot of companies and managers that treat them well here. Unfortunately I'm also pretty sure that there are a lot of companies and manager that take advantage of them as well (i.e. work extra hours under the table and I'll see about sponsoring you for a green card.) Having a hard time switching companies really sucks. Given your work experience in both China and Korea, I would be surprised if you didn't experience some of that as well. However, unlike most H1B workers in the US; you probably have better options when you come back home.

notlisted 14y ago

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_mark_krikorian_cis/ http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been in a managerial capacity for at least 1 year out of the preceding 3 years. As @rada indicated, the cost savings aspect alluded to are more often than not the result of lower age ranges and NOT just from wage discrimination. Also note that if salaries are lower than what one would expect, it's because the prevailing wage number is lower than one might expect, simply because is is defined as the median wage for that position across the STATE, which would explain why prevailing wages are often much lower that what's "prevailing" in metro areas like NYC. (disclosure: IANAL, and I'm not 100% sure this is still the case, but I think it is) One more thing to realize is that H1B workers and L1 workers PAY TAXES in the USA, BUT have NO rights to unemployment if they lose their job, nor to retirement benefits later in life etc. UNLESS they make it to the 40 points limit. At 3-4 points a year, this will typically take 10+ years and thus makes it near impossible with max. duration of visas, even if you 'stack' L1 and H1B (years on L1 add towards 6 year maximum of H1B). In short: the H1B workers fill the coffers of all non-visa workers without the option to withdraw their contribution in the future, unless they become citizens or marry a US spouse. Note that even if they do 8naturalize or marry, they'll need to get to this 40 point level to obtain retirement benefits. Can't find a link, but have the notifications from the social security administration in my files somewhere. I'll be honest: I would not wish an H1B job on my worst enemy. I consider it modern-day slavery because you are beholden to your employer. These days it's not as bad as in the early 2000's, where you were forced to leave within 10 days of losing your job, but it's still not an easy or secure life. Finally, a nice little overview comparing H1B and L1: http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-h1b-visa-comparison.html http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-h1b-visa-comparison....

rada 14y ago
I am very confused. My source is a Dice salaries survey, and to refute said source, you link to a website trashing some guy named Mark Krikorian? Did you reply to my comment by mistake? (1) Your link is to America's Voice, a Washington DC-based pro-immigration lobby organization, hardly an objective source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_Voice_(lobby) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_Voice_(lobby)

prostoalex 14y ago

"tech professionals" usually bundles software engineers, system administrators, network administrators, and sometimes "business analysts" whose job it is to produce a report in Access. Some of these sectors experienced severe declines, e.g., companies hosting their email with Google instead of advertising for an MCSE and Exchange administrator position, so the pay for some of the sectors adjusted accordingly.

rada 14y ago
Web developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States.html http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States... Mobile developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=Unit... Senior Android developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=Uni... Junior Java developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1... Node.js: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+State... No matter what you plug in, you will see 2-year inflation-adjusted increases in the vicinity of 0%. Even better, go ahead and play around with same title, different seniority. Junior iOS programmer: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=junior++ios+programmer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=junior++ios+programmer&l... Senior iOS programmer: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=senior++ios+programmer&l1=United+States http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=senior++ios+programmer&l... See how juniors get raises, while seniors get flat-lined? That's the downward pressure of H1Bs as well as evidence of buyers' (hiring managers) actual purchasing behavior markedly different from "we can't find anyone who can do basic fizz buzz! we need people with skillz!".
- prostoalex 14y ago
  Wouldn't this affect everybody across the board? I think the senior salary flat-lining and junior salary growing is pretty much the law of nature in any occupation - there's a salary band for a given skill, and those who start at the bottom and are any good progress fast, those who start at the bottom and are no good drop out of the race and go do something else, and senior people pretty much know they're at the top of salary range and need to move into management or open up their own consulting firm.

untog 14y ago

Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. As a current H1B holder, I have to disagree with that. I've just completed my second visa transfer, to my third job since moving to the US. I have had zero problems doing so- it requires some patience on the part of your future employer and while I've been lucky with past employers and not had to worry, you can also file the transfer without telling your current employer.

shn 14y ago
Unless you are a permanent resident hopeful what you say is correct. For a lengthy period of green card process does not allow portability of the GC application. I can hardly imagine anyone who has H1B but not has a GC application in the process or about to make that application. At that point visa and the GC application becomes a golden handcuff. If shit hit the fan you are politely reminded of this. It did for me when I was caught in the middle of a power struggle in the company and asked of my loyalty. Employers are not stupid to remind you this (productivity tanks), generally it goes very silent, but if they have to they will remind you, don't worry about that eventuality.
- untog 14y ago
  Very true, but the way I see it is that I've been given ~4 years to find the 'right' position for me. Now that I have done that, I am happy to be "handcuffed" in order to get a green card, because I know my company isn't a ridiculous parody of The Office.