7 ms·

Who Works With ‘Creative Coders?’

79 points by jgv 14y ago

catshirt 14y ago
an upvote would probably be sufficient, but wanted to say thanks to the author for making a great list. i've been looking for this!
callmevlad 14y ago
This is a very exciting trend, and I'm glad more designers are jumping into code. As an art school dropout who later finished a CS degree, the combination of skills is invaluable. I honestly believe that the most difficult work in creating something new/innovative is skewed to the design side, so I hope we see a corresponding trend as well: programmers becoming more interested in design. I like to think of 'creative coders' as great chefs - not only can they dream up a great tasting dish, they can also roll up their sleeves and turn it into an actual meal. A (web/app) designer who shies away from code is like the visionary chef who needs to rely on others to do the cooking, while a programmer who is not concerned with design is little more than a line cook following instructions. Edit: spelling.
- shrub 14y ago
  > while a programmer who is not concerned with design is little more than a line cook following instructions. I disagree with this and am inclined to take offence. Programming is not at all like following a simple recipe. Perhaps if the chef specifies that the line cooks must raise special chickens to be slaughtered for the main dish, keeps a herb garden that the line cooks have to maintain, puts the line cooks in charge of estimating and purchasing ingredients, and gets them to experiment with genetically engineering food to taste good in the dish, maybe then there is hope for a comparison.
  - callmevlad 14y ago
    Sorry, I did not mean to offend. And I admit that in hindsight it is a weak analogy at best. When I wrote that, I was thinking of consumer software specifically, and by a "programmer who is not concerned with design" I had in mind those that just care about implementation details, while not valuing the importance of end user experience. And I've met quite a few programmers like this, mostly in larger companies. You know you've found one when their sentences start with "Why doesn't the user just..." In your expanded example, the fact that the line cook is concerned with the taste of the dish (e.g. after genetic modification) already implies that they care about the "design" of the dish. If, however, there is much more concern around how the cookware is organized in the kitchen, or which brand of vegetable oil should be bought, that has almost no tangible benefits to the person eating the meal.
    - whatshisface 14y ago
      >If, however, there is much more concern around how the cookware is organized in the kitchen, or which brand of vegetable oil should be bought, that has almost no tangible benefits to the person eating the meal. I think you are only looking at one side of the multiplier effect. Yes, organizing cookware does not prepare food, but have you ever tried to cook when all your tools are in a drawer, piled together? Design leads implementation and implementation gives substance to design. Valuing one over the other is like saying a car's engine is more important than it's gas pedal. So, why not have specialized workers? It makes sense to me that the people who don't understand the needs of the average user would be the perfect people to have slog through the mess of poorly designed APIs that pretty much every project ever will have to deal with at some point.
- tikhonj 14y ago
  You know, there is quite a bit of very interesting programming that does not culminate in a web-app or even a GUI. If anything, this is where the most interesting work lies: embedded systems, AI, machine learning, compilers, static analysis, distributed systems... The problems in these spaces require a significant amount of ingenuity and creativity but no design. (I'm assuming you mean visual design rather than something more general.)
- whatshisface 14y ago
  All programers are concerned with design, if nothing else the design of the implementation! All good coders realize that there will really be two groups of users, the consumers and those who wish to extend or maintain the application. A piece of code with a good UX (maybe DX instead?) makes my life so much easier and can save my company quite a bit of money if my salary is high. For small groups, having developers who can make good end user interfaces is pretty much a requirement, but this is noting special. If you were developing oilfield software, you would need to know about drilling. If you are developing software whose purpose is to augment some already-existing element of humanity (like communication), then it is not a surprise that you would want developers that know about how humans like to do things. As members of a community focused almost entirely on a specific subset of everything there is to know about in the world, we must not forget that while a furniture maker should know woodworking well, he should also know about how people sit.
- irreverentbits 14y ago
  While condescending, this analogy isn't terrible for user-facing applications of the most trivial complexity. But equating developers to line cooks in domains where actual engineering talent is required seems a bit ridiculous.
dljsjr 14y ago
I agree with all of the sentiments in the article, but the one small thing that I do disagree with is the conflation of the word "creative" with what the author seems to indicate are artistic or graphical/visual disciplines. I believe that all programming, whether or not it's graphical or "artistic" in nature, is creative. Development is just as much a craft as it is a logical discipline. Learning algorithms, data structures, and software engineering techniques is only half the battle. As "coders", we are knowledge workers. Our job is to solve a problem; the discipline of computer programming is nothing more than a tool that we use to solve our problems. And creative thinking can be utilized any time someone needs to solve a problem. Most truly great programmers and/or computer scientists, at least in my opinion, held on to some level of creativity. Dijkstra never developed a single GUI in his life, but saying that the work he did wasn't "creative" would be insulting. You could say similar things about people such as von Neumann, or even more concrete computer scientists like Kay, Stroustrup, etc. The idea that creativity is inherently tied to "emotional" pursuits like art, design, music, etc. is a little reductionist. Creativity, like programming, is a tool. It's the ability to enter a creative mindset and use creative thought processes to approach a problem, and it is also a refinable skill and not a trait. Creative thinking is just as approachable and general as critical thinking, but so often people who aren't "artistic" reduce themselves to also being not "creative", and I don't think that's very correct. One of the best descriptions of creativity I've ever heard was in a talk delivered by John Cleese. If you have 30 minutes, I highly recommend watching it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VShmtsLhkQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VShmtsLhkQg
- minimax 14y ago
  I think in this context he's using "creative" in the sense that it's used in the advertising industry. A creative is someone who actually works on developing an advertisement, rather than, say, someone buying up airtime. The companies on the list are almost all advertising agencies. It's just the industry nomenclature and I don't think he meant to say that programmers in the non-advertising world aren't creative.
  - timtadh 14y ago
    That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean the above however the implication is there.
datalus 14y ago
I wonder if any places like hacker school, et. al. have creative coding projects? I would be inclined to think that hacker school is probably the one that would be closest, as the other places seem more focused on web development.
pawelwentpawel 14y ago
I'm happy to see this thread on front page. Some of those projects seem to be very challenging and interesting. I would be careful however with the creative coder concept. Most of the work done in interactive installations is highly unusual and takes from graphics programming, computer vision, physics programming and sometimes integration with social media. Solid programming background is a must - I don't really see how knowing processing or three.js suddenly makes you a creative coder. I would rather define it as a all-round developer with loads of ideas on how to make unconventional combinations of technology work together.
msutherl 14y ago
Thanks for this! I'm among the new batch of students that are the subject of this article and currently looking for jobs in NY. I've been maintaining a similar list, but yours contains a number of additions for which I'm grateful. Some advice: I've applied to a lot of these places and haven't gotten replies – it's my understanding that it's much better to approach through personal connections. A few companies not on your list that that focus on creative coding: – Moment Factory – ESKI Inc. – GSM Project – United Visual Artists – Light Surgeons – Tangible Interaction – Drawing and Manual – Kimchi and Chips – Jonpasang – Hybe – DinahMoe A few more traditional agencies that appear to hire "creative coders": – Sid Lee – Rockwell Group – Invisible Light Network – Obscura Digital – Razorfish – Wieden + Kennedy – Big Spaceship
- mrdub 14y ago
  Thirteen23 in austin http://thirteen23.com/contact/ http://thirteen23.com/contact/
- orangethirty 14y ago
  Please add Nuuton, though it is not an agency, but a startup. Apply by sending me an email (on profile). Note: currently internships are available.
- dataglam 14y ago
  "I've applied to a lot of these places and haven't gotten replies – it's my understanding that it's much better to approach through personal connections." I've replied to this at the top.
- awongh 14y ago
  I'd also mention Stamen: www.stamen.com
- hanleybrand 14y ago
  Cipher Prime (Auditorium, Fractal, Pulse:Volume One, Splice) in Philadelphia, PA belongs on the list, their apps all fit squarely in the "creative coding" category. http://www.cipherprime.com http://www.cipherprime.com
jankins 14y ago
I find this interesting because as a former artist, the reason I love programming is that it scratches the same creative itch. I'm not sure if I fit in the 'Creative Coders' category, since though I was an aspiring artist prior to getting into development, I was never commercially successful at it, and I'm really not a good designer since I find commercial art pretty tedious. Programming, however, is another thing altogether; within about a year of beginning from scratch, I got a job at one of the companies in this list (Mirada) leading development on an interactive storytelling app. One thing that I think gave me a good edge was some development experience in the entertainment realm -- I had made an iPhone app to help screenwriters organize their thoughts, and got a chance to make an app for a comic book trying to get off the ground. I also know that we're currently looking for more iOS developers (especially with OpenGL experience) so the development side is only growing.
- kellishaver 14y ago
  I feel similarly. I studied art in school-my degree is in fine art, with an area of focus on design. I spent a lot of time after I graduated working as a frustrated designer. My clients were happy, but nothing was ever "good enough" in the feels really satisfying sense. Then I shifted my focus to development and I get a lot more satisfaction out of it. I find that it suits my particular brand of creativity and attention to technical details. I love the problem solving, and conjuring up working software out of nothing. I still do some design work, and I still enjoy it, but I do it on my own terms, or I do things like interfaces - again, more technical in nature. I quite like doing the occasional pencil or marker drawing, because it's good stress relief. But it's programming that really satisfies my need to create.
jakedahn 14y ago
I got a degree like this from the art institutes international minnesota. It was far more frontend-web centric but we did have the chance to dive deeper into things like processing, arduino, and openframeworks. However most of the students werent that bright, but the faculty was fantastic and curriculum was solid. I think the bigest difference between 'creative programmers' and programmers from a traditional computer science background is the perspective in which they look at code, and engineering problems. 'Creative programmers' approach things with an emphasis on the discovery process which, I think, allows them to understand the things they are working on in more of an organic context. Whereas people from a traditional computer science background tend to approach things with a systematic view of the things they are working on. The difference can look sublte, but it is real. I think having an organic understanding of a product enables 'creative programmers' to build an end to end product (from user interaction to the inner workings), whereas traditional computer science programmers will specialize on a single aspect.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
dataglam 14y ago
In my experience, 'creative coding' work opportunities happen in the follow ways: - Personal connections are huge. Agencies, especially those connected with advertising, are likely not tech-savvy enough to understand the specific contribution that you can bring to a project. They will often rely on someone who already has rapport and knowledge of creative coding within their organization to recruit more talent. Its to your advantage to know those people. - Have presence in the community of your creative coding platform(s) of choice as an expert. Answer question on the forums. Teach workshops. Write tutorials. Or simply just share work. To that end, you might be able to build rapport with the people mentioned in the first point. - Create compelling projects using creative coding platforms, whether its a useful data visualization or just a thing of beauty. It doesn't have to be a paid project. Then promote the heck out of it. Invite people to blog about it, critique it. Absorb the critique. Share the code on github. A lot of work gets created in these communities that goes unnoticed because it doesn't get to the right channels. - Build a compelling portfolio that non-tech/creative types can appreciate, but at the same time doesn't remove you of your hacker cred--it should be obvious that you coded this stuff in the written language that you use and the images that your present. In grad school, you might have been able to present each project as fun or research, but now you need to shift the presentation in a way that offers value to the outside world. Consider the practical applications of what you've created (even if practical had originally been the last thing on your mind) and list those (e.g. "this kind of dynamic 3D data visualization could be used to visualize data x more effectively because..." ). The other option is to have a portfolio that only the creative coding community will appreciate. But than it will be up to someone else to convince business-minded folks to work with you. - It may be to your benefit to take a standard gig as an Engineer or Interaction Designer before attempting to do something like this professionally. A creative coder who has engineering, graphic design, or interaction design professional experience can be a huge asset to a project. It may also be an entry point for discussion with the people that you are working with, who may not really get what you are doing otherwise. Also, you may choose to (or financially need to) do other work between these special projects, so doing something complimentary could be a good use of your time. - It's important to keep coding. Don't wait for paid projects to fall into your lap. The people who do this well live and breath this stuff, and sometimes after a full days work on a commercial gig, go home and work on an art project project or even putting together their own library or framework.
daralthus 14y ago
have a look at the job board at creative applications net: http://www.creativeapplications.net/job-board/ http://www.creativeapplications.net/job-board/

79 points by jgv 14y ago

an upvote would probably be sufficient, but wanted to say thanks to the author for making a great list. i've been looking for this!

callmevlad 14y ago

This is a very exciting trend, and I'm glad more designers are jumping into code. As an art school dropout who later finished a CS degree, the combination of skills is invaluable. I honestly believe that the most difficult work in creating something new/innovative is skewed to the design side, so I hope we see a corresponding trend as well: programmers becoming more interested in design. I like to think of 'creative coders' as great chefs - not only can they dream up a great tasting dish, they can also roll up their sleeves and turn it into an actual meal. A (web/app) designer who shies away from code is like the visionary chef who needs to rely on others to do the cooking, while a programmer who is not concerned with design is little more than a line cook following instructions. Edit: spelling.

shrub 14y ago
> while a programmer who is not concerned with design is little more than a line cook following instructions. I disagree with this and am inclined to take offence. Programming is not at all like following a simple recipe. Perhaps if the chef specifies that the line cooks must raise special chickens to be slaughtered for the main dish, keeps a herb garden that the line cooks have to maintain, puts the line cooks in charge of estimating and purchasing ingredients, and gets them to experiment with genetically engineering food to taste good in the dish, maybe then there is hope for a comparison.
- callmevlad 14y ago
  Sorry, I did not mean to offend. And I admit that in hindsight it is a weak analogy at best. When I wrote that, I was thinking of consumer software specifically, and by a "programmer who is not concerned with design" I had in mind those that just care about implementation details, while not valuing the importance of end user experience. And I've met quite a few programmers like this, mostly in larger companies. You know you've found one when their sentences start with "Why doesn't the user just..." In your expanded example, the fact that the line cook is concerned with the taste of the dish (e.g. after genetic modification) already implies that they care about the "design" of the dish. If, however, there is much more concern around how the cookware is organized in the kitchen, or which brand of vegetable oil should be bought, that has almost no tangible benefits to the person eating the meal.
  - whatshisface 14y ago
    >If, however, there is much more concern around how the cookware is organized in the kitchen, or which brand of vegetable oil should be bought, that has almost no tangible benefits to the person eating the meal. I think you are only looking at one side of the multiplier effect. Yes, organizing cookware does not prepare food, but have you ever tried to cook when all your tools are in a drawer, piled together? Design leads implementation and implementation gives substance to design. Valuing one over the other is like saying a car's engine is more important than it's gas pedal. So, why not have specialized workers? It makes sense to me that the people who don't understand the needs of the average user would be the perfect people to have slog through the mess of poorly designed APIs that pretty much every project ever will have to deal with at some point.
tikhonj 14y ago
You know, there is quite a bit of very interesting programming that does not culminate in a web-app or even a GUI. If anything, this is where the most interesting work lies: embedded systems, AI, machine learning, compilers, static analysis, distributed systems... The problems in these spaces require a significant amount of ingenuity and creativity but no design. (I'm assuming you mean visual design rather than something more general.)
whatshisface 14y ago
All programers are concerned with design, if nothing else the design of the implementation! All good coders realize that there will really be two groups of users, the consumers and those who wish to extend or maintain the application. A piece of code with a good UX (maybe DX instead?) makes my life so much easier and can save my company quite a bit of money if my salary is high. For small groups, having developers who can make good end user interfaces is pretty much a requirement, but this is noting special. If you were developing oilfield software, you would need to know about drilling. If you are developing software whose purpose is to augment some already-existing element of humanity (like communication), then it is not a surprise that you would want developers that know about how humans like to do things. As members of a community focused almost entirely on a specific subset of everything there is to know about in the world, we must not forget that while a furniture maker should know woodworking well, he should also know about how people sit.
irreverentbits 14y ago
While condescending, this analogy isn't terrible for user-facing applications of the most trivial complexity. But equating developers to line cooks in domains where actual engineering talent is required seems a bit ridiculous.

dljsjr 14y ago

I agree with all of the sentiments in the article, but the one small thing that I do disagree with is the conflation of the word "creative" with what the author seems to indicate are artistic or graphical/visual disciplines. I believe that all programming, whether or not it's graphical or "artistic" in nature, is creative. Development is just as much a craft as it is a logical discipline. Learning algorithms, data structures, and software engineering techniques is only half the battle. As "coders", we are knowledge workers. Our job is to solve a problem; the discipline of computer programming is nothing more than a tool that we use to solve our problems. And creative thinking can be utilized any time someone needs to solve a problem. Most truly great programmers and/or computer scientists, at least in my opinion, held on to some level of creativity. Dijkstra never developed a single GUI in his life, but saying that the work he did wasn't "creative" would be insulting. You could say similar things about people such as von Neumann, or even more concrete computer scientists like Kay, Stroustrup, etc. The idea that creativity is inherently tied to "emotional" pursuits like art, design, music, etc. is a little reductionist. Creativity, like programming, is a tool. It's the ability to enter a creative mindset and use creative thought processes to approach a problem, and it is also a refinable skill and not a trait. Creative thinking is just as approachable and general as critical thinking, but so often people who aren't "artistic" reduce themselves to also being not "creative", and I don't think that's very correct. One of the best descriptions of creativity I've ever heard was in a talk delivered by John Cleese. If you have 30 minutes, I highly recommend watching it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VShmtsLhkQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VShmtsLhkQg

minimax 14y ago
I think in this context he's using "creative" in the sense that it's used in the advertising industry. A creative is someone who actually works on developing an advertisement, rather than, say, someone buying up airtime. The companies on the list are almost all advertising agencies. It's just the industry nomenclature and I don't think he meant to say that programmers in the non-advertising world aren't creative.
- timtadh 14y ago
  That may be true but I find the term denigrating towards programmers. This isn't the advertising industry and their nomenclature isn't appropriate here. It implies a "non-creative" type of programmer. It also implies most programmers are of a "non-creative" type. Furthermore, the implication is those programmers, since they are by definition non-creative, don't do their own thinking. The term may not technically mean the above however the implication is there.

datalus 14y ago

I wonder if any places like hacker school, et. al. have creative coding projects? I would be inclined to think that hacker school is probably the one that would be closest, as the other places seem more focused on web development.

pawelwentpawel 14y ago

I'm happy to see this thread on front page. Some of those projects seem to be very challenging and interesting. I would be careful however with the creative coder concept. Most of the work done in interactive installations is highly unusual and takes from graphics programming, computer vision, physics programming and sometimes integration with social media. Solid programming background is a must - I don't really see how knowing processing or three.js suddenly makes you a creative coder. I would rather define it as a all-round developer with loads of ideas on how to make unconventional combinations of technology work together.

msutherl 14y ago

Thanks for this! I'm among the new batch of students that are the subject of this article and currently looking for jobs in NY. I've been maintaining a similar list, but yours contains a number of additions for which I'm grateful. Some advice: I've applied to a lot of these places and haven't gotten replies – it's my understanding that it's much better to approach through personal connections. A few companies not on your list that that focus on creative coding: – Moment Factory – ESKI Inc. – GSM Project – United Visual Artists – Light Surgeons – Tangible Interaction – Drawing and Manual – Kimchi and Chips – Jonpasang – Hybe – DinahMoe A few more traditional agencies that appear to hire "creative coders": – Sid Lee – Rockwell Group – Invisible Light Network – Obscura Digital – Razorfish – Wieden + Kennedy – Big Spaceship

mrdub 14y ago
Thirteen23 in austin http://thirteen23.com/contact/ http://thirteen23.com/contact/
orangethirty 14y ago
Please add Nuuton, though it is not an agency, but a startup. Apply by sending me an email (on profile). Note: currently internships are available.
dataglam 14y ago
"I've applied to a lot of these places and haven't gotten replies – it's my understanding that it's much better to approach through personal connections." I've replied to this at the top.
awongh 14y ago
I'd also mention Stamen: www.stamen.com
hanleybrand 14y ago
Cipher Prime (Auditorium, Fractal, Pulse:Volume One, Splice) in Philadelphia, PA belongs on the list, their apps all fit squarely in the "creative coding" category. http://www.cipherprime.com http://www.cipherprime.com

jankins 14y ago

I find this interesting because as a former artist, the reason I love programming is that it scratches the same creative itch. I'm not sure if I fit in the 'Creative Coders' category, since though I was an aspiring artist prior to getting into development, I was never commercially successful at it, and I'm really not a good designer since I find commercial art pretty tedious. Programming, however, is another thing altogether; within about a year of beginning from scratch, I got a job at one of the companies in this list (Mirada) leading development on an interactive storytelling app. One thing that I think gave me a good edge was some development experience in the entertainment realm -- I had made an iPhone app to help screenwriters organize their thoughts, and got a chance to make an app for a comic book trying to get off the ground. I also know that we're currently looking for more iOS developers (especially with OpenGL experience) so the development side is only growing.

kellishaver 14y ago
I feel similarly. I studied art in school-my degree is in fine art, with an area of focus on design. I spent a lot of time after I graduated working as a frustrated designer. My clients were happy, but nothing was ever "good enough" in the feels really satisfying sense. Then I shifted my focus to development and I get a lot more satisfaction out of it. I find that it suits my particular brand of creativity and attention to technical details. I love the problem solving, and conjuring up working software out of nothing. I still do some design work, and I still enjoy it, but I do it on my own terms, or I do things like interfaces - again, more technical in nature. I quite like doing the occasional pencil or marker drawing, because it's good stress relief. But it's programming that really satisfies my need to create.

jakedahn 14y ago

I got a degree like this from the art institutes international minnesota. It was far more frontend-web centric but we did have the chance to dive deeper into things like processing, arduino, and openframeworks. However most of the students werent that bright, but the faculty was fantastic and curriculum was solid. I think the bigest difference between 'creative programmers' and programmers from a traditional computer science background is the perspective in which they look at code, and engineering problems. 'Creative programmers' approach things with an emphasis on the discovery process which, I think, allows them to understand the things they are working on in more of an organic context. Whereas people from a traditional computer science background tend to approach things with a systematic view of the things they are working on. The difference can look sublte, but it is real. I think having an organic understanding of a product enables 'creative programmers' to build an end to end product (from user interaction to the inner workings), whereas traditional computer science programmers will specialize on a single aspect.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

dataglam 14y ago

In my experience, 'creative coding' work opportunities happen in the follow ways: - Personal connections are huge. Agencies, especially those connected with advertising, are likely not tech-savvy enough to understand the specific contribution that you can bring to a project. They will often rely on someone who already has rapport and knowledge of creative coding within their organization to recruit more talent. Its to your advantage to know those people. - Have presence in the community of your creative coding platform(s) of choice as an expert. Answer question on the forums. Teach workshops. Write tutorials. Or simply just share work. To that end, you might be able to build rapport with the people mentioned in the first point. - Create compelling projects using creative coding platforms, whether its a useful data visualization or just a thing of beauty. It doesn't have to be a paid project. Then promote the heck out of it. Invite people to blog about it, critique it. Absorb the critique. Share the code on github. A lot of work gets created in these communities that goes unnoticed because it doesn't get to the right channels. - Build a compelling portfolio that non-tech/creative types can appreciate, but at the same time doesn't remove you of your hacker cred--it should be obvious that you coded this stuff in the written language that you use and the images that your present. In grad school, you might have been able to present each project as fun or research, but now you need to shift the presentation in a way that offers value to the outside world. Consider the practical applications of what you've created (even if practical had originally been the last thing on your mind) and list those (e.g. "this kind of dynamic 3D data visualization could be used to visualize data x more effectively because..." ). The other option is to have a portfolio that only the creative coding community will appreciate. But than it will be up to someone else to convince business-minded folks to work with you. - It may be to your benefit to take a standard gig as an Engineer or Interaction Designer before attempting to do something like this professionally. A creative coder who has engineering, graphic design, or interaction design professional experience can be a huge asset to a project. It may also be an entry point for discussion with the people that you are working with, who may not really get what you are doing otherwise. Also, you may choose to (or financially need to) do other work between these special projects, so doing something complimentary could be a good use of your time. - It's important to keep coding. Don't wait for paid projects to fall into your lap. The people who do this well live and breath this stuff, and sometimes after a full days work on a commercial gig, go home and work on an art project project or even putting together their own library or framework.

daralthus 14y ago

have a look at the job board at creative applications net: http://www.creativeapplications.net/job-board/ http://www.creativeapplications.net/job-board/