9 ms·

As Surface Goes On Sale Today, Microsoft Seeks to Reinvent The Tablet

82 points by jonathansizz 14y ago

vyrotek 14y ago
64 GB with Black Touch Cover - $699.00 32 GB with Black Touch Cover - $599.00 32 GB without Black Touch Cover - $499.00
kgp7 14y ago
I was rather hoping the keyboard would be included with the package. I think Microsoft can ill afford to charge so much for an accessory that is pretty much a USP for their tablets.
- rlu 14y ago
  Eh, in a way it kind of does? What I mean is I think of it as "you can pay less without" because if you get it WITH the keyboard then it matches the iPad price. If you get it without, it undercuts iPad by $100. I think that's fair.
  - voodoomagicman 14y ago
    I don't think it is fair to say it undercuts the price - the cheapest surface matches the cheapest ipad 3 at ~$500, while apple still offers the ipad2 for $400. The surface does offer more storage at the $500 level, but the ipad has a higher resolution screen.
- WrkInProgress 14y ago
  Agreed With as much fan fare as they have given to the two keyboards and their prominence in the first commercial, it seems like a missed opportunity to not include it. I don't know the retail logistics, but they could have at least put together some sort of "savings bundle", so that they people could choose their keyboard colour.
- deskamess 14y ago
  I prefer it without the keyboard - a simple tablet. If I feel the need I can purchase one later. We may even have 3rd parties (Logitech, etc) provide keyboards for this.
rlu 14y ago
You can: * get it with a keyboard for the same price as an iPad of the same storage * get it without a keyboard for $100 less than an iPad of the same storage. Seems fair :D
- rlu 14y ago
  Also worth mentioning that it has an SD slot. I personally got the 32gb with a cyan cover and plan on buying a 32gb sd card to add on to it.
  - mark_l_watson 14y ago
    Do you know what software development tools will be available via Microsoft's App Store? Ruby, Python, etc.? Emacs? Thanks!
    - nnnnni 14y ago
      Do you REALLY want to program on a tablet? How would you use those IDEs (because that's what you're really asking for) to sync with version control software/servers?
      - mark_l_watson 14y ago
        I use a MacBook Air because I like to work and write often while travelling. The thing I miss in the MBA is a touch screen. The Surface seems like it might fit my needs in the future, especially since I am not in the mood to buy more Apple gear given their behavior recently that I don't like. Ironic to me that I am viewing Apple in a more negative way than Microsoft. In any case I don't need any more writing development gear right now so I can wait several months and see how well the new Surface platform is viewed when I need to buy.
      - kooshball 14y ago
        >How would you use those IDEs (because that's what you're really asking for) to sync with version control software/servers? Is this a trick question? Why can't you do it the same way as a desktop OS: have a separate tool or integrated in the IDE.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
stephengillie 14y ago
Here is a killer feature on Surface: Host Mode aka USB-OTG But it also has a USB port and a cover that doubles as a keyboard; it works with a wide range of other devices, like printers and external hard drives; and it will even charge up your phone. Edit: I don't know tablets ;)
- cryptoz 14y ago
  My Motorola Xoom has been doing that for more than a year, since Android 3.1 I think. It is awesome, but not new or unique, nor a killer feature.
- aviraldg 14y ago
  Android tablets (3.0+) also support USB host mode afaik.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    How does that help if the tablet does not have a full USB port that is powered? Fiddling around with another power adaptor and cable is pretty annoying.
    - aviraldg 14y ago
      I don't know about you, but almost all Android tablets I've seen have one (or two.) This (rather popular low-end tablet in India): http://www.hclmetablet.com/ http://www.hclmetablet.com/, for example has one too. It's a regular USB port and no adapters are required.
- grecy 14y ago
  I can get a $30 adapter for my black and white 3rd gen iPod that lets it do that for cameras and HDDs
brudgers 14y ago
>"Microsoft instantly becomes the third major player in the tablet market, a market where it is taking a fundamentally different approach than its rivals, Apple and Google." I'd put Amazon in the group of Microsoft rivals...at this time, at least. I could see Amazon moving to a Windows platform. A clear roadmap and development partner would be consistent with Amazon's core business.
- voodoomagicman 14y ago
  I think that is much less likely now that microsoft has bought a stake in nook. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443493304578036860822089312.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044349330457803...
- mtgx 14y ago
  Amazon clearly wants full control over their own OS. Why would they go with Windows?
  - chollida1 14y ago
    > Microsoft clearly wants to be in the hardware business and to make money this way > Amazon clearly wants full control over their own OS. You keep saying things are clear but provide absolutely no proof of this. What if Amazon doesn't want full control over their own OS, but just wants a good enough OS and hasn't found one yet? What if Microsoft doesn't really want to be in the tablet hardware business but just wants to give other OEM's a reference design? Both are just as possible as what you propose.
happycube 14y ago
At that price, with a relatively low res screen... Dead On Arrival.
randallu 14y ago
So they're going head-to-head with iPad on price and they have few third party apps or games. Obviously this was a wonderful strategy for Palm, RIM, Android (before 2012), Fusion Garage (ha!), HP's slate, etc. Also, the T30 is seriously long in the tooth at this point. The A5, A6, Qualcomm 8960, Exynos 4 all beat it on GPU perf, and most of them beat it on CPU perf. $500 for a T30-based computer? No way!
Alcedes 14y ago
This looks like Zune all over again. Let's go over some points. First the UI has been around for a few years on phones and has yet to catch on at all. Market share has actually shrunk even with positive reviews from the technorati. Data point 2: I'm seeing lots of comments on how the pricing is "worth it" because you get a full computing experience... err no, the RT model is ARM based so it will only run native metro apps. The fact that geeks reading tech sites get this wrong should be a huge warning sign for MS. Think of how confused a normal customer will be when trying to figure out what runs on what? Point 3: MS office Touch enabled as a throw in for free, great until you actually try to use it. Instead of re-imagining from the ground up for a touch interface (Apple Style), they decide to hack on a touch mode and call it a day. All reviews have been deservedly scathing. The silver lining if your a MS fan is this will be the end of Ballmer. I assume the reviews should be out within a week, should be interesting.
- lotso 14y ago
  Windows Phone not doing well in the market is not an indication of the success of the UI. Most reviewers praise the UI.
  - silverbax88 14y ago
    Well, it certainly could be. There are reasons that exist as to why the phone hasn't been successful, and that has to be considered as a possibility.
    - joenathan 14y ago
      Anyone with half a brain knows that that is not the reason. Microsoft came way too late to market with a 1.0 version product while everyone else was 3 or 4 revisions deep. edit: a few more thoughts The mobile phone industry had become an echo chamber, then Apple came in and made a clean break, dropped the cruft everyone else was clinging to and pushed the envelope. Apple changed the mode and completely shook up the market, Google was the quickest in responding while Microsoft was clearly caught completely off guard and is finally putting its best foot forward, but they are very late to the party.
monkeyfacebag 14y ago
> It was responsive and impressive and, well, weird. Keys fired well, but other aspects, like the track pad or pressing keyboard combinations, felt odd. Due to (supposed) focus on productivity, Surface has piqued my interest, but there's no way I'm going to order one without putting my hands on the touch keyboard first. Microsoft has not done a good job showing me how it works or convincing me that it is better than the on-screen keyboard I'm currently using (compare to Apple's iPhone keynote, etc.).
maxpert 14y ago
Battery: iPad 42.5-watt-hour clearly mentioning browsing time (its called confidence on your quality). Surface RT 31.5-watt-hour Pro 42-watt-hour. WiFi+Cellular: iPad Yep. Surface WiFi only. Weight: iPad 1.44lbs to 1.46lbs. Surface RT 1.5lbs and Pro 2.0lbs. Applications: iPad Rock solid platform unified. Surface Choose between RT and Pro messed up ARM and x86. For me I think Microsoft has done same mistake again, introduce "complexity" and if you look closely they are actually selling you a "not a gorgeous quality stuff" for same price as iPad. I don't see Microsoft dominating the market! Just getting a market douche on stage that makes you hear sound of click with no quality in product pisses me off! So ya Microsoft is reinventing in fact "reimagining" how to create mess in Tablet world!
- rthomas6 14y ago
  Thank you for this completely level-headed and unbiased comparison of the two products. You clearly outline all the relevant aspects of each product instead of just cherry picking to make one product look better. I know I can trust your comparison because you state only the facts and are careful to not play favorites.
  - maxpert 14y ago
    LOL thanks for sarcasm but Yep believe it or not, Memory cards, and USB support has not hurt sales of iPad before. I am actually pissed of at the ecosystem split (ARM and x86), I had high hopes maybe so thats why I was pissed off on Microsoft claiming to re-invent!
    - geon 14y ago
      > Memory cards, and USB support has not hurt sales of iPad before. How could you possibly know?
WiseWeasel 14y ago
As the first public release of Windows for ARM processors, Surface RT is probably going to have rough edges for quite some time, not to mention limited software support, so it makes sense that they're being conservative with the pricing. If they dumped them on the market, they'd still get pummeled by poor reviews, their margins would be nil, their partners would be irate, and they'd have a much bigger support issue on their hands. The people they really need to be buying these at launch are developers who want to bet on a future market for Windows RT apps, at least until they've had a chance to fix some of the bigger bugs.
TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
I've not seen the major complaint yet in any of the HN articles. Microsoft has traditionally made software, and rebranded things like mice and small peripherals. They only 'recently' got into the xbox, but that was different for it was a game system. Now, with them being a computer dealer now, where does that leave Dell, HP, and other manufacturers?
- scottchin 14y ago
  As mentioned by someone in another thread, one possibility is that Surface is partly meant to set the bar for third-party manufacturers. It's high enough make the competition (Dell, HP, etc) put out good products that won't tarnish the new Windows platform image. But not so high as to make third parties not want to bother competing. This was a problem with early Android. There were so many poor devices that the entire Android brand was hurt (but since recovered).
  - TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
    Requirements for licensing Windows RT could have also stipulated certain hardware minimums. I know that MS did something similar with netbooks, where they stipulates hardware maximums. I believe the major difference is that Microsoft has entered the computer manufacturers arena as a 1st tier manufacturer. Everybody else is now tier 2. And this leads to problems with monopolies and vertical integration.
  - mtgx 14y ago
    I think that's just smoke screen. Microsoft clearly wants to be in the hardware business and to make money this way. They are envious of how easily Apple can make a ton of profit with a lot less "market share". I don't think they really care what happens to the manufacturers, if in the end they make more money on hardware than they do through licensing.
georgemcbay 14y ago
The only Surface I'm interested in is the Pro version. Without access to the wider world of Windows software, I'll just keep using my ASUS Transformer. Based on the lack of a release date and likely significantly higher pricing for the Pro I'll probably just end up buying someone else's hybrid Windows 8 solution (eg. ASUS seems like a good bet based on my positive experience with the aforementioned Transformer). I may be wrong due to my tech geek biases but I think leading out with the "RT" model is a mistake. The only super-compelling thing Windows 8 tablets bring to the table for me is the possibility of running "real" Windows software when using it as a laptop.
- Metrop0218 14y ago
  I think that is a big tech geek bias. It's really hard (impossible) to put ourselves in the shoes of the non-nerd, but we should try. I don't think the non-nerd will care as much as you do, or if at all. I think that leading with the RT model was actually a great call, because it will jump start the market of tablets that can only use modern apps and then in turn give a lot of incentives for developers to make them. If they led with the x86 surface, then the app market would have been a lot smaller come end of year.
  - monsterix 14y ago
    Non-nerds generally tend to seek advise from nerdy in their vicinity (social circle). Sort of trickle down effect. The impact is quite significant now, given that nerds and semi-nerds are aplenty.
    - Metrop0218 14y ago
      Very true! As a company selling a new product you have to get approval from the nerds to have a successful product. I like this.
    - gizmogwai 14y ago
      True, but it is also true that nerds HATE with a passion to be referred as the de-facto helpdesk for those they will give any recommendation. I would never EVER, recommend any Linux distribution at the time being to any of my non-nerds contact, in favor of a product that is simple to use (even at the cost of some freedom) and very hard to break.
ericdykstra 14y ago
I see the Surface as a great replacement to netbooks. I'm not sure if I'll get one yet, but a lightweight, small laptop that is not at all a pain to take with me anywhere is still a useful thing. I got a lot of use out of my 10" MSI netbook, and at 1.5lbs with a great keyboard/cover system, this could fit in as a nice replacement for that, without nearing the cost of a Macbook Air. The ability for it to double as a tablet for light internet browsing makes gives it some added value, as well. I think that a key market for this will be for people who could use a tablet and a laptop, but can't justify purchasing both a decent laptop and a tablet. Of course, as the price of a good Android tablet moves closer and closer to an ultra-affordable $99 price point, this advantage may disappear pretty quickly. It will be interesting to see how the market responds, and how much people enjoy using the hardware. It's different enough that it has a real chance to make a dent in the market.
firefoxman1 14y ago
I haven't been this excited for a Microsoft product...perhaps ever. Then I saw the price and thought "We've been down this road before (HP Touchpad). You can't sell Apple competitors at Apple prices." As soon as the Touchpad dropped to $99 they couldn't stay on shelves for even the first day. So let's find a compromise where the company still makes money. $299? It's just odd that the company who won the PC Wars by enabling manufacturers to win on price seems to have forgotten the only one of the 4 P's that they could have had over Apple.
- webwright 14y ago
  $499 is probably pretty aggressive- MSFT doesn't have the supply chain magic or economy of scale that Apple has. I suspect they aren't making much/any money at $499... But I think you're right that they need to buy market share with a lower price-- they are too late to the game to get a foothold otherwise unless the product is near magical.
  - jbigelow76 14y ago
    "MSFT doesn't have the supply chain magic or economy of scale that Apple has." I keep seeing the supply chain thing mentioned a lot. Microsoft has been in the hardware game for a long time, and the XBox has had been around long enough and shipped enough volume that MS probably has people just as competent at managing the logistics of consumer device delivery as Apple. Apple might be just a smidge better at but it's like comparing Wal-Mart to Target, Wal-Mart (Apple) maybe the #1 but Target (MS) is a logisitical behemoth in its own right to the point where the supply chain alone does not decide the winner.
    - forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
      "I keep seeing the supply chain thing mentioned a lot" Because it is very important, at the same price Apple could be getting 40% profit and MS barely getting break even. It does not matter how much Xbox they ship, but how many tablets they are already shipping, and Apple is selling millions and it has been doing for years. this already happened with macbooks and ultrabooks, ultrabooks has been loosing money at the same price ranges because they got late.
kmfrk 14y ago
I think this is going to be absolutely great college and high school students, but I don't know how eager people will be to buy a Surface as a Christmas present compared to a Summer purchase for school. Time will tell, I guess. It's not like people knew what the hell they were going to use an iPad for, when it was first announced.
tharris0101 14y ago
Hey, I'm an avid MBP, iPad, iPhone user and I love them, but I think this is really going to be big for Microsoft. There are many, many people who are completely immersed in a Microsoft world. These people use iOS and Android devices because they are the only viable options. I foresee this being a huge blow to Apple, which will (hopefully) wake them up a bit and focus back on innovating a bit more again.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
femto113 14y ago
I love my Microsoft keyboard, I use it with my MacBook Pro all day long at work (I do NOT like the standalone Apple keyboards). If they came out with a keyboard cover for the iPad I'd buy one, and I'm willing to bet it would be a huge seller. As for the Surface tablet itself, I'll be blown away if it ever makes it as high as the #2 tablet. Only their usual pigheadedness will keep them from actually succeeding in "reinventing the tablet" by releasing one.

82 points by jonathansizz 14y ago

64 GB with Black Touch Cover - $699.00 32 GB with Black Touch Cover - $599.00 32 GB without Black Touch Cover - $499.00

kgp7 14y ago

I was rather hoping the keyboard would be included with the package. I think Microsoft can ill afford to charge so much for an accessory that is pretty much a USP for their tablets.

rlu 14y ago
Eh, in a way it kind of does? What I mean is I think of it as "you can pay less without" because if you get it WITH the keyboard then it matches the iPad price. If you get it without, it undercuts iPad by $100. I think that's fair.
- voodoomagicman 14y ago
  I don't think it is fair to say it undercuts the price - the cheapest surface matches the cheapest ipad 3 at ~$500, while apple still offers the ipad2 for $400. The surface does offer more storage at the $500 level, but the ipad has a higher resolution screen.
WrkInProgress 14y ago
Agreed With as much fan fare as they have given to the two keyboards and their prominence in the first commercial, it seems like a missed opportunity to not include it. I don't know the retail logistics, but they could have at least put together some sort of "savings bundle", so that they people could choose their keyboard colour.
deskamess 14y ago
I prefer it without the keyboard - a simple tablet. If I feel the need I can purchase one later. We may even have 3rd parties (Logitech, etc) provide keyboards for this.

rlu 14y ago

You can: * get it with a keyboard for the same price as an iPad of the same storage * get it without a keyboard for $100 less than an iPad of the same storage. Seems fair :D

rlu 14y ago
Also worth mentioning that it has an SD slot. I personally got the 32gb with a cyan cover and plan on buying a 32gb sd card to add on to it.
- mark_l_watson 14y ago
  Do you know what software development tools will be available via Microsoft's App Store? Ruby, Python, etc.? Emacs? Thanks!
  - nnnnni 14y ago
    Do you REALLY want to program on a tablet? How would you use those IDEs (because that's what you're really asking for) to sync with version control software/servers?
    - mark_l_watson 14y ago
      I use a MacBook Air because I like to work and write often while travelling. The thing I miss in the MBA is a touch screen. The Surface seems like it might fit my needs in the future, especially since I am not in the mood to buy more Apple gear given their behavior recently that I don't like. Ironic to me that I am viewing Apple in a more negative way than Microsoft. In any case I don't need any more writing development gear right now so I can wait several months and see how well the new Surface platform is viewed when I need to buy.
    - kooshball 14y ago
      >How would you use those IDEs (because that's what you're really asking for) to sync with version control software/servers? Is this a trick question? Why can't you do it the same way as a desktop OS: have a separate tool or integrated in the IDE.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

stephengillie 14y ago

Here is a killer feature on Surface: Host Mode aka USB-OTG But it also has a USB port and a cover that doubles as a keyboard; it works with a wide range of other devices, like printers and external hard drives; and it will even charge up your phone. Edit: I don't know tablets ;)

cryptoz 14y ago
My Motorola Xoom has been doing that for more than a year, since Android 3.1 I think. It is awesome, but not new or unique, nor a killer feature.
aviraldg 14y ago
Android tablets (3.0+) also support USB host mode afaik.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- cooldeal 14y ago
  How does that help if the tablet does not have a full USB port that is powered? Fiddling around with another power adaptor and cable is pretty annoying.
  - aviraldg 14y ago
    I don't know about you, but almost all Android tablets I've seen have one (or two.) This (rather popular low-end tablet in India): http://www.hclmetablet.com/ http://www.hclmetablet.com/, for example has one too. It's a regular USB port and no adapters are required.
grecy 14y ago
I can get a $30 adapter for my black and white 3rd gen iPod that lets it do that for cameras and HDDs

brudgers 14y ago

>"Microsoft instantly becomes the third major player in the tablet market, a market where it is taking a fundamentally different approach than its rivals, Apple and Google." I'd put Amazon in the group of Microsoft rivals...at this time, at least. I could see Amazon moving to a Windows platform. A clear roadmap and development partner would be consistent with Amazon's core business.

voodoomagicman 14y ago
I think that is much less likely now that microsoft has bought a stake in nook. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443493304578036860822089312.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044349330457803...
mtgx 14y ago
Amazon clearly wants full control over their own OS. Why would they go with Windows?
- chollida1 14y ago
  > Microsoft clearly wants to be in the hardware business and to make money this way > Amazon clearly wants full control over their own OS. You keep saying things are clear but provide absolutely no proof of this. What if Amazon doesn't want full control over their own OS, but just wants a good enough OS and hasn't found one yet? What if Microsoft doesn't really want to be in the tablet hardware business but just wants to give other OEM's a reference design? Both are just as possible as what you propose.

happycube 14y ago

At that price, with a relatively low res screen... Dead On Arrival.

randallu 14y ago

So they're going head-to-head with iPad on price and they have few third party apps or games. Obviously this was a wonderful strategy for Palm, RIM, Android (before 2012), Fusion Garage (ha!), HP's slate, etc. Also, the T30 is seriously long in the tooth at this point. The A5, A6, Qualcomm 8960, Exynos 4 all beat it on GPU perf, and most of them beat it on CPU perf. $500 for a T30-based computer? No way!

Alcedes 14y ago

This looks like Zune all over again. Let's go over some points. First the UI has been around for a few years on phones and has yet to catch on at all. Market share has actually shrunk even with positive reviews from the technorati. Data point 2: I'm seeing lots of comments on how the pricing is "worth it" because you get a full computing experience... err no, the RT model is ARM based so it will only run native metro apps. The fact that geeks reading tech sites get this wrong should be a huge warning sign for MS. Think of how confused a normal customer will be when trying to figure out what runs on what? Point 3: MS office Touch enabled as a throw in for free, great until you actually try to use it. Instead of re-imagining from the ground up for a touch interface (Apple Style), they decide to hack on a touch mode and call it a day. All reviews have been deservedly scathing. The silver lining if your a MS fan is this will be the end of Ballmer. I assume the reviews should be out within a week, should be interesting.

lotso 14y ago
Windows Phone not doing well in the market is not an indication of the success of the UI. Most reviewers praise the UI.
- silverbax88 14y ago
  Well, it certainly could be. There are reasons that exist as to why the phone hasn't been successful, and that has to be considered as a possibility.
  - joenathan 14y ago
    Anyone with half a brain knows that that is not the reason. Microsoft came way too late to market with a 1.0 version product while everyone else was 3 or 4 revisions deep. edit: a few more thoughts The mobile phone industry had become an echo chamber, then Apple came in and made a clean break, dropped the cruft everyone else was clinging to and pushed the envelope. Apple changed the mode and completely shook up the market, Google was the quickest in responding while Microsoft was clearly caught completely off guard and is finally putting its best foot forward, but they are very late to the party.

monkeyfacebag 14y ago

> It was responsive and impressive and, well, weird. Keys fired well, but other aspects, like the track pad or pressing keyboard combinations, felt odd. Due to (supposed) focus on productivity, Surface has piqued my interest, but there's no way I'm going to order one without putting my hands on the touch keyboard first. Microsoft has not done a good job showing me how it works or convincing me that it is better than the on-screen keyboard I'm currently using (compare to Apple's iPhone keynote, etc.).

maxpert 14y ago

Battery: iPad 42.5-watt-hour clearly mentioning browsing time (its called confidence on your quality). Surface RT 31.5-watt-hour Pro 42-watt-hour. WiFi+Cellular: iPad Yep. Surface WiFi only. Weight: iPad 1.44lbs to 1.46lbs. Surface RT 1.5lbs and Pro 2.0lbs. Applications: iPad Rock solid platform unified. Surface Choose between RT and Pro messed up ARM and x86. For me I think Microsoft has done same mistake again, introduce "complexity" and if you look closely they are actually selling you a "not a gorgeous quality stuff" for same price as iPad. I don't see Microsoft dominating the market! Just getting a market douche on stage that makes you hear sound of click with no quality in product pisses me off! So ya Microsoft is reinventing in fact "reimagining" how to create mess in Tablet world!

rthomas6 14y ago
Thank you for this completely level-headed and unbiased comparison of the two products. You clearly outline all the relevant aspects of each product instead of just cherry picking to make one product look better. I know I can trust your comparison because you state only the facts and are careful to not play favorites.
- maxpert 14y ago
  LOL thanks for sarcasm but Yep believe it or not, Memory cards, and USB support has not hurt sales of iPad before. I am actually pissed of at the ecosystem split (ARM and x86), I had high hopes maybe so thats why I was pissed off on Microsoft claiming to re-invent!
  - geon 14y ago
    > Memory cards, and USB support has not hurt sales of iPad before. How could you possibly know?

WiseWeasel 14y ago

As the first public release of Windows for ARM processors, Surface RT is probably going to have rough edges for quite some time, not to mention limited software support, so it makes sense that they're being conservative with the pricing. If they dumped them on the market, they'd still get pummeled by poor reviews, their margins would be nil, their partners would be irate, and they'd have a much bigger support issue on their hands. The people they really need to be buying these at launch are developers who want to bet on a future market for Windows RT apps, at least until they've had a chance to fix some of the bigger bugs.

TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago

I've not seen the major complaint yet in any of the HN articles. Microsoft has traditionally made software, and rebranded things like mice and small peripherals. They only 'recently' got into the xbox, but that was different for it was a game system. Now, with them being a computer dealer now, where does that leave Dell, HP, and other manufacturers?

scottchin 14y ago
As mentioned by someone in another thread, one possibility is that Surface is partly meant to set the bar for third-party manufacturers. It's high enough make the competition (Dell, HP, etc) put out good products that won't tarnish the new Windows platform image. But not so high as to make third parties not want to bother competing. This was a problem with early Android. There were so many poor devices that the entire Android brand was hurt (but since recovered).
- TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
  Requirements for licensing Windows RT could have also stipulated certain hardware minimums. I know that MS did something similar with netbooks, where they stipulates hardware maximums. I believe the major difference is that Microsoft has entered the computer manufacturers arena as a 1st tier manufacturer. Everybody else is now tier 2. And this leads to problems with monopolies and vertical integration.
- mtgx 14y ago
  I think that's just smoke screen. Microsoft clearly wants to be in the hardware business and to make money this way. They are envious of how easily Apple can make a ton of profit with a lot less "market share". I don't think they really care what happens to the manufacturers, if in the end they make more money on hardware than they do through licensing.

georgemcbay 14y ago

The only Surface I'm interested in is the Pro version. Without access to the wider world of Windows software, I'll just keep using my ASUS Transformer. Based on the lack of a release date and likely significantly higher pricing for the Pro I'll probably just end up buying someone else's hybrid Windows 8 solution (eg. ASUS seems like a good bet based on my positive experience with the aforementioned Transformer). I may be wrong due to my tech geek biases but I think leading out with the "RT" model is a mistake. The only super-compelling thing Windows 8 tablets bring to the table for me is the possibility of running "real" Windows software when using it as a laptop.

Metrop0218 14y ago
I think that is a big tech geek bias. It's really hard (impossible) to put ourselves in the shoes of the non-nerd, but we should try. I don't think the non-nerd will care as much as you do, or if at all. I think that leading with the RT model was actually a great call, because it will jump start the market of tablets that can only use modern apps and then in turn give a lot of incentives for developers to make them. If they led with the x86 surface, then the app market would have been a lot smaller come end of year.
- monsterix 14y ago
  Non-nerds generally tend to seek advise from nerdy in their vicinity (social circle). Sort of trickle down effect. The impact is quite significant now, given that nerds and semi-nerds are aplenty.
  - Metrop0218 14y ago
    Very true! As a company selling a new product you have to get approval from the nerds to have a successful product. I like this.
  - gizmogwai 14y ago
    True, but it is also true that nerds HATE with a passion to be referred as the de-facto helpdesk for those they will give any recommendation. I would never EVER, recommend any Linux distribution at the time being to any of my non-nerds contact, in favor of a product that is simple to use (even at the cost of some freedom) and very hard to break.

ericdykstra 14y ago

I see the Surface as a great replacement to netbooks. I'm not sure if I'll get one yet, but a lightweight, small laptop that is not at all a pain to take with me anywhere is still a useful thing. I got a lot of use out of my 10" MSI netbook, and at 1.5lbs with a great keyboard/cover system, this could fit in as a nice replacement for that, without nearing the cost of a Macbook Air. The ability for it to double as a tablet for light internet browsing makes gives it some added value, as well. I think that a key market for this will be for people who could use a tablet and a laptop, but can't justify purchasing both a decent laptop and a tablet. Of course, as the price of a good Android tablet moves closer and closer to an ultra-affordable $99 price point, this advantage may disappear pretty quickly. It will be interesting to see how the market responds, and how much people enjoy using the hardware. It's different enough that it has a real chance to make a dent in the market.

firefoxman1 14y ago

I haven't been this excited for a Microsoft product...perhaps ever. Then I saw the price and thought "We've been down this road before (HP Touchpad). You can't sell Apple competitors at Apple prices." As soon as the Touchpad dropped to $99 they couldn't stay on shelves for even the first day. So let's find a compromise where the company still makes money. $299? It's just odd that the company who won the PC Wars by enabling manufacturers to win on price seems to have forgotten the only one of the 4 P's that they could have had over Apple.

webwright 14y ago
$499 is probably pretty aggressive- MSFT doesn't have the supply chain magic or economy of scale that Apple has. I suspect they aren't making much/any money at $499... But I think you're right that they need to buy market share with a lower price-- they are too late to the game to get a foothold otherwise unless the product is near magical.
- jbigelow76 14y ago
  "MSFT doesn't have the supply chain magic or economy of scale that Apple has." I keep seeing the supply chain thing mentioned a lot. Microsoft has been in the hardware game for a long time, and the XBox has had been around long enough and shipped enough volume that MS probably has people just as competent at managing the logistics of consumer device delivery as Apple. Apple might be just a smidge better at but it's like comparing Wal-Mart to Target, Wal-Mart (Apple) maybe the #1 but Target (MS) is a logisitical behemoth in its own right to the point where the supply chain alone does not decide the winner.
  - forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
    "I keep seeing the supply chain thing mentioned a lot" Because it is very important, at the same price Apple could be getting 40% profit and MS barely getting break even. It does not matter how much Xbox they ship, but how many tablets they are already shipping, and Apple is selling millions and it has been doing for years. this already happened with macbooks and ultrabooks, ultrabooks has been loosing money at the same price ranges because they got late.

kmfrk 14y ago

I think this is going to be absolutely great college and high school students, but I don't know how eager people will be to buy a Surface as a Christmas present compared to a Summer purchase for school. Time will tell, I guess. It's not like people knew what the hell they were going to use an iPad for, when it was first announced.

tharris0101 14y ago

Hey, I'm an avid MBP, iPad, iPhone user and I love them, but I think this is really going to be big for Microsoft. There are many, many people who are completely immersed in a Microsoft world. These people use iOS and Android devices because they are the only viable options. I foresee this being a huge blow to Apple, which will (hopefully) wake them up a bit and focus back on innovating a bit more again.

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femto113 14y ago

I love my Microsoft keyboard, I use it with my MacBook Pro all day long at work (I do NOT like the standalone Apple keyboards). If they came out with a keyboard cover for the iPad I'd buy one, and I'm willing to bet it would be a huge seller. As for the Surface tablet itself, I'll be blown away if it ever makes it as high as the #2 tablet. Only their usual pigheadedness will keep them from actually succeeding in "reinventing the tablet" by releasing one.