6 ms·

Still crazy how little investment goes to Python given how critical it is to the ecosystem.

by qaq 9mo ago

mixmastamyk 9mo ago
Poor management has played a role. They refused to invest in packaging to the extent that a separate company (astral) had to do it for them. Bugs closed for years with the excuse “we’re only volunteers.” Meanwhile, “outreach” was funded for several million a year. Not confidence inspiring. Maybe would have improved if the funds had been spent more appropriately. Similar story with Mozilla.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  I don't know much about the Linux Foundation if I'm being honest, even though I've been a 24/7 Linux user for decades, but they seemingly don't have the same image in the ecosystem, at least not close to how people see Mozilla today. Why is that? Is there lessons to be learned from the Linux Foundation how to actually effectively and responsibly manage that sort of money, in those types of projects?
  - mixmastamyk 9mo ago
    A foundation should invest in its technology first and resist the strong temptation to fund pet projects (of leadership) with donated money.
    - nedbat 9mo ago
      I'm not sure what you are labeling as pet projects of leadership? Is there something the PSF is doing that you consider a pet project rather than part of their core mission?
      - mixmastamyk 9mo ago
        Yes, outreach before investing in packaging. It’s not that outreach is bad but that packaging was crumbling.
        nedbat 9mo ago
        I'm not sure how you got to "before" here. The PSF runs PyPI, organizes the Python Packaging Authority, supports sprints and standardization efforts, funds developers in residence and so on. Packaging is improving, partly because of those efforts. It's not an either/or.
        mixmastamyk 9mo ago
        https://devclass.com/2025/03/10/pypi-repository-takes-steps-towards-paid-services-as-volunteers-struggle-to-meet-demand/ https://devclass.com/2025/03/10/pypi-repository-takes-steps-... > CPython core developer Paul Moore described his involvement in the > packaging community and said: “it’s struggling under the weight of its own > popularity … the individuals involved are doing their best under what are > frankly near-impossible conditions.” > Moore questioned whether the fact that so many businesses now depend on > Python and PyPI meant that “maybe a purely volunteer basis simply can’t > work any more,” though he hoped this is not the case.
        nedbat 9mo ago
        Yes, it could use more funding. Glad to see that Anthropic is helping. It's still not an either/or situation. The PSF would not be fulfilling their mission if they only funded packaging until packaging was "solved" (whatever that might mean) and only then did they fund outreach.
        mixmastamyk 9mo ago
        I didn't say either/or, and was talking about priorities. One shouldn't install a fancy roof when the foundation is crumbling. > The PSF would not be fulfilling their mission if they only funded packaging until packaging was "solved" (whatever that might mean) and only then did they fund outreach. They did the opposite. So they still didn't fulfill it, to the extent that Mozilla, ChanZuck, and astral felt compelled to step in.
  - upboundspiral 9mo ago
    The Linux foundation is not a nonprofit. It is registered as a 501c6, basically a business consortium, unlike the Python software foundation which is a nonprofit (501c3). The Linux foundation also stewards way more foundations and projects that just "Linux". They are, among other things, in the business of creating foundations and making money that way. For every organization under the Linux foundation, say the CNCF, to be a part of those subprojects, you need to pay a Linux foundation tax. The Python Software foundation I don't know much about but their scope seems to be only stewarding python. They seem to have far less corporate outreach then the Linux foundation. Linux Foundation 990 - note page 16-17 with the salaries - there are for profit entity salaries, not nonprofit salaries. https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/460503801_201812_990O_2020011517035818.pdf https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/460503801_201812_990O...
- teh64 9mo ago
  Where are you getting these numbers? Looking at the PSFs Report for 2024 [0], 50% of their expenses went to pycon. Would you consider that outreach? I believe conferences are very important as part of the health of a language, and reading the definition of outreach[1], I would not classify the conference as that. The second highest amount of expenses (27.1%) went to (surprise!) "Packaging Work Group/Infrastructure/Other", i.e. pypi, pip etc... "Outreach & Education" was only 2.8% of 12.9% of expenses, i.e. 0.3612%, which is $17846 (actual dollars, not thousands like in the report.) [0] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2024/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2024/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreach
  - mixmastamyk 9mo ago
    The assertions above are my memory from pre-covid, I’d look at 2019 and before perhaps. Many things changed after that (and council too) but it takes a while to change perception.
    - teh64 9mo ago
      In 2019 [0] they only had 2.5 million of total expenses, of which 75% was pycon. So even if everything else was on "outreach" (it was not), that would only be $642,500, which is not "several million a year". In 2020 [1] 48.1% went to "Packaging Work Group/Infrastructure/Other" (I assume because in person pycon was canceled). I also checked 2021 [2], which was 32.7% pycon and 31.2% pip etc... Also 2022 [3], 57.8% pycon, 26.6% Packaging Work Group... In 2023 [4], 60.5% pycon, and Packaging Work Group expenses decreased to 9.6% because of fastly now provides the bandwidth/hosting: "We are grateful to Fastly for making the online services that the PSF provides possible, so that we can invest time and resources into advancing our infrastructure to better meet community wants and needs." So your assertion seems to have never been true. [0] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ [1] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ [2] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2021/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2021/ [3] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2022/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2022/ [4] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2023/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2023/
- jborean93 9mo ago
  > They refused to invest in packaging to the extent that a separate company (astral) had to do it for them uv didn't just happen in a vacuum, there has been lots of investment in the Python packaging ecosystem that has enabled it (and other tools) to try and improve the shortcomings of Python and packaging. There's PEP 518 [1] for build requirements, PEP 600 [2] for manylinux wheels, PEP 621 [3] for pyproject.toml, PEP 656 [4] for musl wheels platform identifiers, PEP 723 [5] for inline script metadata. Without all this uv wouldn't be a thing and we would be stuck with pip and setuptools or a bunch of more bandaid hacks on top making the whole thing brittle. [1] https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ [2] https://peps.python.org/pep-0600/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0600/ [3] https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/ [4] https://peps.python.org/pep-0654/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0654/ [5] https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/
  - iwontberude 9mo ago
    It seemed pipenv is more than sufficient, why should I use uv?
    - jborean93 9mo ago
      That's the thing, you don't have to :) While I think uv is a great tool and highly recommend it, you are more than welcome to use any of the other build backends or package management tools that fit your workstyle. By having these packaging PEPs (amongst) others, the ecosystem has been able to try out different approaches and most likely over time will consolidate on specific ones that work better than the others.
    - hiAndrewQuinn 9mo ago
      Anecdata, but uv served as a very good packaging mechanism for a Python library I had to throw on an in extremis box, one that is not connected to the Internet in any way, and one where messing with the system Python was verboten and Docker was a four-letter word.
  - mixmastamyk 9mo ago
    Obviously, but writing PEPs is not enough. Read through the comments under any Python thread here from the late 2010s to early 2020s. Just ~two years ago you couldn't talk about anything Python-related without discussion veering far offtopic to complain about packaging.
1970-01-01 9mo ago
As far as I'm aware, Python was only recently (2020s) taught in most schools, so that's the reason it wasn't and isn't well funded. Schools will stick with legacy languages far beyond their market lifetimes, as that is what the instructors know best. So it's not that it isn't well funded, it's that it's still early in terms of global popularity. As we just witnessed, the funding is just now coming in big drops.
- woodruffw 9mo ago
  MIT was already using Python by 2009[1]; I think it's been one of the "standard" teaching languages for well over a decade at this point. (By most metrics, Python became "big" in the mid-late 2000s, which is why the Python 3 transition was so painful.) [1]: https://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/2110/why-mit-switched-from-scheme-to-python https://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/2110/why-mit-switched-f...
elevation 9mo ago
For many of us the language itself has been feature complete for decades.

Still crazy how little investment goes to Python given how critical it is to the ecosystem.

by qaq 9mo ago

Still crazy how little investment goes to Python given how critical it is to the ecosystem.

Poor management has played a role. They refused to invest in packaging to the extent that a separate company (astral) had to do it for them. Bugs closed for years with the excuse “we’re only volunteers.” Meanwhile, “outreach” was funded for several million a year. Not confidence inspiring. Maybe would have improved if the funds had been spent more appropriately. Similar story with Mozilla.

embedding-shape 9mo ago
I don't know much about the Linux Foundation if I'm being honest, even though I've been a 24/7 Linux user for decades, but they seemingly don't have the same image in the ecosystem, at least not close to how people see Mozilla today. Why is that? Is there lessons to be learned from the Linux Foundation how to actually effectively and responsibly manage that sort of money, in those types of projects?
- mixmastamyk 9mo ago
  A foundation should invest in its technology first and resist the strong temptation to fund pet projects (of leadership) with donated money.
  - nedbat 9mo ago
    I'm not sure what you are labeling as pet projects of leadership? Is there something the PSF is doing that you consider a pet project rather than part of their core mission?
    - mixmastamyk 9mo ago
      Yes, outreach before investing in packaging. It’s not that outreach is bad but that packaging was crumbling.
      - nedbat 9mo ago
        I'm not sure how you got to "before" here. The PSF runs PyPI, organizes the Python Packaging Authority, supports sprints and standardization efforts, funds developers in residence and so on. Packaging is improving, partly because of those efforts. It's not an either/or.
        mixmastamyk 9mo ago
        https://devclass.com/2025/03/10/pypi-repository-takes-steps-towards-paid-services-as-volunteers-struggle-to-meet-demand/ https://devclass.com/2025/03/10/pypi-repository-takes-steps-... > CPython core developer Paul Moore described his involvement in the > packaging community and said: “it’s struggling under the weight of its own > popularity … the individuals involved are doing their best under what are > frankly near-impossible conditions.” > Moore questioned whether the fact that so many businesses now depend on > Python and PyPI meant that “maybe a purely volunteer basis simply can’t > work any more,” though he hoped this is not the case.
        nedbat 9mo ago
        Yes, it could use more funding. Glad to see that Anthropic is helping. It's still not an either/or situation. The PSF would not be fulfilling their mission if they only funded packaging until packaging was "solved" (whatever that might mean) and only then did they fund outreach.
        mixmastamyk 9mo ago
        I didn't say either/or, and was talking about priorities. One shouldn't install a fancy roof when the foundation is crumbling. > The PSF would not be fulfilling their mission if they only funded packaging until packaging was "solved" (whatever that might mean) and only then did they fund outreach. They did the opposite. So they still didn't fulfill it, to the extent that Mozilla, ChanZuck, and astral felt compelled to step in.
- upboundspiral 9mo ago
  The Linux foundation is not a nonprofit. It is registered as a 501c6, basically a business consortium, unlike the Python software foundation which is a nonprofit (501c3). The Linux foundation also stewards way more foundations and projects that just "Linux". They are, among other things, in the business of creating foundations and making money that way. For every organization under the Linux foundation, say the CNCF, to be a part of those subprojects, you need to pay a Linux foundation tax. The Python Software foundation I don't know much about but their scope seems to be only stewarding python. They seem to have far less corporate outreach then the Linux foundation. Linux Foundation 990 - note page 16-17 with the salaries - there are for profit entity salaries, not nonprofit salaries. https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/460503801_201812_990O_2020011517035818.pdf https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/460503801_201812_990O...
teh64 9mo ago
Where are you getting these numbers? Looking at the PSFs Report for 2024 [0], 50% of their expenses went to pycon. Would you consider that outreach? I believe conferences are very important as part of the health of a language, and reading the definition of outreach[1], I would not classify the conference as that. The second highest amount of expenses (27.1%) went to (surprise!) "Packaging Work Group/Infrastructure/Other", i.e. pypi, pip etc... "Outreach & Education" was only 2.8% of 12.9% of expenses, i.e. 0.3612%, which is $17846 (actual dollars, not thousands like in the report.) [0] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2024/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2024/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreach
- mixmastamyk 9mo ago
  The assertions above are my memory from pre-covid, I’d look at 2019 and before perhaps. Many things changed after that (and council too) but it takes a while to change perception.
  - teh64 9mo ago
    In 2019 [0] they only had 2.5 million of total expenses, of which 75% was pycon. So even if everything else was on "outreach" (it was not), that would only be $642,500, which is not "several million a year". In 2020 [1] 48.1% went to "Packaging Work Group/Infrastructure/Other" (I assume because in person pycon was canceled). I also checked 2021 [2], which was 32.7% pycon and 31.2% pip etc... Also 2022 [3], 57.8% pycon, 26.6% Packaging Work Group... In 2023 [4], 60.5% pycon, and Packaging Work Group expenses decreased to 9.6% because of fastly now provides the bandwidth/hosting: "We are grateful to Fastly for making the online services that the PSF provides possible, so that we can invest time and resources into advancing our infrastructure to better meet community wants and needs." So your assertion seems to have never been true. [0] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ [1] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ [2] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2021/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2021/ [3] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2022/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2022/ [4] https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2023/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2023/
jborean93 9mo ago
> They refused to invest in packaging to the extent that a separate company (astral) had to do it for them uv didn't just happen in a vacuum, there has been lots of investment in the Python packaging ecosystem that has enabled it (and other tools) to try and improve the shortcomings of Python and packaging. There's PEP 518 [1] for build requirements, PEP 600 [2] for manylinux wheels, PEP 621 [3] for pyproject.toml, PEP 656 [4] for musl wheels platform identifiers, PEP 723 [5] for inline script metadata. Without all this uv wouldn't be a thing and we would be stuck with pip and setuptools or a bunch of more bandaid hacks on top making the whole thing brittle. [1] https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ [2] https://peps.python.org/pep-0600/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0600/ [3] https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/ [4] https://peps.python.org/pep-0654/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0654/ [5] https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/
- iwontberude 9mo ago
  It seemed pipenv is more than sufficient, why should I use uv?
  - jborean93 9mo ago
    That's the thing, you don't have to :) While I think uv is a great tool and highly recommend it, you are more than welcome to use any of the other build backends or package management tools that fit your workstyle. By having these packaging PEPs (amongst) others, the ecosystem has been able to try out different approaches and most likely over time will consolidate on specific ones that work better than the others.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 9mo ago
    Anecdata, but uv served as a very good packaging mechanism for a Python library I had to throw on an in extremis box, one that is not connected to the Internet in any way, and one where messing with the system Python was verboten and Docker was a four-letter word.
- mixmastamyk 9mo ago
  Obviously, but writing PEPs is not enough. Read through the comments under any Python thread here from the late 2010s to early 2020s. Just ~two years ago you couldn't talk about anything Python-related without discussion veering far offtopic to complain about packaging.

1970-01-01 9mo ago

As far as I'm aware, Python was only recently (2020s) taught in most schools, so that's the reason it wasn't and isn't well funded. Schools will stick with legacy languages far beyond their market lifetimes, as that is what the instructors know best. So it's not that it isn't well funded, it's that it's still early in terms of global popularity. As we just witnessed, the funding is just now coming in big drops.

woodruffw 9mo ago
MIT was already using Python by 2009[1]; I think it's been one of the "standard" teaching languages for well over a decade at this point. (By most metrics, Python became "big" in the mid-late 2000s, which is why the Python 3 transition was so painful.) [1]: https://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/2110/why-mit-switched-from-scheme-to-python https://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/2110/why-mit-switched-f...

elevation 9mo ago

For many of us the language itself has been feature complete for decades.