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There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Sometimes with valid complaints. But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a versio

There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Sometimes with valid complaints. But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome and justifies it over Firefox for a very shallow or outdated reason. Firefox would do well to listen to some of the criticism about the browser and ignore the noise about anything else There's also the cohort of bad web developers that only test on Chrome

pjmlp 9mo ago
Including everyone that ships Chrome with their application as "native" app. VSCode gets a pass, because apparently it is the only programmer's editor that many only care about providing plugins nowadays.
- no_wizard 9mo ago
  The ubiquity of their plugin model is why. Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    Yeah, and with it Eclipse wins a second time, especially on embedded where Eclipse CDT forks were replaced by VSCode forks. "Project Ticino: Microsoft's Erich Gamma on Visual Studio Code past, present, and future" https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_code/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_cod...
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    > Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer Huh, never heard about this before, and took a look at emacs and vim/neovim as those are the two most popular editors I know of, neither can run VS code plugins, that'd be crazy if true.
    - freedomben 9mo ago
      Very long time vim/neovim user here. I can't remember names atm and can't check, but I have definitely seen plugins that run a headless or subset of VScode in the background to pull info from it. It may not be super common, but it is being done
      - devsda 9mo ago
        You are probably referring to language support plug-ins. IIRC, debugger support for java needed a component from one of the official plug-ins.
    - WorldMaker 9mo ago
      If you count LSP (Language Server Protocol) as a VSCode plugin-compatible layer as LSP was built and standardized by the VSCode team (so many do), then Emacs and Neovim are full of VSCode-compatible plugins today. One of Neovim's selling points right now over bare Vim is better/more direct LSP support.
      - embedding-shape 9mo ago
        Ah, if LSP is what parent meant with "VS code plugin compatible layer" then what you say makes sense, I personally also moved from vim to neovim mainly because of better LSP support. But I understood "VS code plugin compatible layer" to mean there is something that lets you run VSCode plugins with other editors, which is what I haven't seen anywhere (yet?).
      - iLemming 9mo ago
        Except Emacs doesn't have "plugins". They are called "packages" and not plugins for specific reasons - they are more like libraries than plugins. In Emacs, one can change/override the behavior of any function (built-in or third party) with some enormous flexibility not easily achievable in other editors.
morcus 9mo ago
As someone that uses Firefox as my main browser on desktop and mobile, I am curious here - what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? I'm using 3+ year old hardware that was mid-range even when it was new and it seems to do everything I would want with reasonable performance.
- soganess 9mo ago
  Major problems with Firefox include: - full uBlock support - the ability to still be themed - first-party isolation ...Okay, okay, I’m being too cheeky. The common wisdom is that overall Firefox can feel bottlenecked at render and draw times (“less snappy”). That could be a result of a slower JavaScript engine (takes longer to get to drawing), or a result of poorer hardware acceleration (slower drawing), or a less optimized multiprocessing/multithreading model (more resource contention when drawing). I honestly can't see it in the real world, but synthetic benchmark are pretty clear on that front.
- Yoric 9mo ago
  Hum. I have at home 13 year old hardware running Firefox and no performance complaints.
- LunaSea 9mo ago
  > what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? If you are a (the) leading browser like Firefox once was, the "what are the complaints?" is the right question. If you are a minor browser like Firefox currently is (~2.5% market share), the "what is it doing better?" is the correct question.
  - jampekka 9mo ago
    The Firefox market share was eaten largely by the enormous and legally dubious marketing campaigns by Google and Microsoft. Hard to see how Mozilla could compete with constant forced nags and defaults in the most widely used websites and operating systems.
    - LunaSea 9mo ago
wolvoleo 9mo ago
I use Firefox almost exclusively on desktop and android and I'm still pretty critical of it. Especially because I know I'm one of very few people that uses it that much.
EvanAnderson 9mo ago
> There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. I don't have a problem w/ Firefox not being perfect. I have a problem with the Mozilla Foundation spending money on seemingly random other stuff and not on Firefox.
account42 9mo ago
> But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome Pure cope
lamontcg 9mo ago
It really seems like all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. People know it is wrong to stay on Chrome and empower Google to the extent that it is, but they're stuck on that workflow and don't want to change, so they find nits to pick about firefox and get very LOUD about that. Then it becomes Mozill's fault that they're still using Chrome, and you can't blame them for anything.
- hu3 9mo ago
  > all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. Sorry this is too handwavy for me. According to this logic, Mozilla is likely going to die believing it did nothing wrong.
  - lamontcg 9mo ago
    It is going to die because it won't ever be perfect enough, while Google will win because the vastly more important problems with Google's control are just the status quo.
pessimizer 9mo ago
> There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Nobody has ever complained about anything not being perfect. That's just something dishonest people say when they want to avoid mentioning specific criticisms.

pjmlp 9mo ago

Including everyone that ships Chrome with their application as "native" app. VSCode gets a pass, because apparently it is the only programmer's editor that many only care about providing plugins nowadays.

no_wizard 9mo ago
The ubiquity of their plugin model is why. Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  Yeah, and with it Eclipse wins a second time, especially on embedded where Eclipse CDT forks were replaced by VSCode forks. "Project Ticino: Microsoft's Erich Gamma on Visual Studio Code past, present, and future" https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_code/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_cod...
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  > Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer Huh, never heard about this before, and took a look at emacs and vim/neovim as those are the two most popular editors I know of, neither can run VS code plugins, that'd be crazy if true.
  - freedomben 9mo ago
    Very long time vim/neovim user here. I can't remember names atm and can't check, but I have definitely seen plugins that run a headless or subset of VScode in the background to pull info from it. It may not be super common, but it is being done
    - devsda 9mo ago
      You are probably referring to language support plug-ins. IIRC, debugger support for java needed a component from one of the official plug-ins.
  - WorldMaker 9mo ago
    If you count LSP (Language Server Protocol) as a VSCode plugin-compatible layer as LSP was built and standardized by the VSCode team (so many do), then Emacs and Neovim are full of VSCode-compatible plugins today. One of Neovim's selling points right now over bare Vim is better/more direct LSP support.
    - embedding-shape 9mo ago
      Ah, if LSP is what parent meant with "VS code plugin compatible layer" then what you say makes sense, I personally also moved from vim to neovim mainly because of better LSP support. But I understood "VS code plugin compatible layer" to mean there is something that lets you run VSCode plugins with other editors, which is what I haven't seen anywhere (yet?).
    - iLemming 9mo ago
      Except Emacs doesn't have "plugins". They are called "packages" and not plugins for specific reasons - they are more like libraries than plugins. In Emacs, one can change/override the behavior of any function (built-in or third party) with some enormous flexibility not easily achievable in other editors.

morcus 9mo ago

As someone that uses Firefox as my main browser on desktop and mobile, I am curious here - what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? I'm using 3+ year old hardware that was mid-range even when it was new and it seems to do everything I would want with reasonable performance.

soganess 9mo ago
Major problems with Firefox include: - full uBlock support - the ability to still be themed - first-party isolation ...Okay, okay, I’m being too cheeky. The common wisdom is that overall Firefox can feel bottlenecked at render and draw times (“less snappy”). That could be a result of a slower JavaScript engine (takes longer to get to drawing), or a result of poorer hardware acceleration (slower drawing), or a less optimized multiprocessing/multithreading model (more resource contention when drawing). I honestly can't see it in the real world, but synthetic benchmark are pretty clear on that front.
Yoric 9mo ago
Hum. I have at home 13 year old hardware running Firefox and no performance complaints.
LunaSea 9mo ago
> what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? If you are a (the) leading browser like Firefox once was, the "what are the complaints?" is the right question. If you are a minor browser like Firefox currently is (~2.5% market share), the "what is it doing better?" is the correct question.
- jampekka 9mo ago
  The Firefox market share was eaten largely by the enormous and legally dubious marketing campaigns by Google and Microsoft. Hard to see how Mozilla could compete with constant forced nags and defaults in the most widely used websites and operating systems.
  - LunaSea 9mo ago

wolvoleo 9mo ago

I use Firefox almost exclusively on desktop and android and I'm still pretty critical of it. Especially because I know I'm one of very few people that uses it that much.

EvanAnderson 9mo ago

> There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. I don't have a problem w/ Firefox not being perfect. I have a problem with the Mozilla Foundation spending money on seemingly random other stuff and not on Firefox.

account42 9mo ago

> But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome Pure cope

lamontcg 9mo ago

It really seems like all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. People know it is wrong to stay on Chrome and empower Google to the extent that it is, but they're stuck on that workflow and don't want to change, so they find nits to pick about firefox and get very LOUD about that. Then it becomes Mozill's fault that they're still using Chrome, and you can't blame them for anything.

hu3 9mo ago
> all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. Sorry this is too handwavy for me. According to this logic, Mozilla is likely going to die believing it did nothing wrong.
- lamontcg 9mo ago
  It is going to die because it won't ever be perfect enough, while Google will win because the vastly more important problems with Google's control are just the status quo.

pessimizer 9mo ago

> There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Nobody has ever complained about anything not being perfect. That's just something dishonest people say when they want to avoid mentioning specific criticisms.