3 ms·

This is a load of bullshit man. Even the article you linked describes lying to his friends' parents to get a second dinner, being unable to have just one cookie

by sfn42 9mo ago

This is a load of bullshit man. Even the article you linked describes lying to his friends' parents to get a second dinner, being unable to have just one cookie etc. The only way to get fat is to eat too much and anyone who really eats too much will get fat. There's a huge amount of people who simply lie or are ignorant about their food intake. Fat people falsely claiming they hardly eat anything but can't lose weight etc. Of course you lose weight if you don't eat. Your body can't create energy from nothing. Without energy you die.

mmooss 9mo ago
That's not actually what the evidence says, overwhelmingly.
- sfn42 9mo ago
  Share to share any of it?
  - mmooss 9mo ago
    Always a fair request. I don't know it well enough or have time at the moment, but afaik it's the medical consensus: Obesity is a disease, (mostly) not a result of behavior. Eating less and/or more activity doesn't cure people; iirc bodies adjust to retain the same amount of fat, etc. under the new conditions.
    - sfn42 9mo ago
      I don't know where you get your science man but I'm about 100% sure what you just said is completely false. Not even remotely controversial just flat out wrong.
      - mmooss 9mo ago
        What I said is commonplace if you look around.
        sfn42 9mo ago
        Yeah, beliefs commonly held by people who would rather make excuses than improve their lives.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        It's just baseless nonsense. Doctors and researchers say otherwise.
        sfn42 9mo ago
        And you still haven't found the time to show me any of them.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        Show us a basis for what you say.
        sfn42 9mo ago
        I asked first. You're the one claiming all this scientific and expert consensus. I'm just talking common sense stuff that pretty much everyone agree on. This is simply the basics of how the body works. I could take some time to find some sources but so could you and you aren't so why should I? It's pretty clear that you're thoroughly convinced of your own bullshit anyway, if you had any interest at all in finding the truth you'd do some light googling and find that pretty much everything I'm saying is true. I'm not interested in wasting my time finding arbitrary sources for common knowledge that you're just going to ignore anyway. You don't have to find sources for me, I know they don't exist and if you find anything it's going to be obvious bullshit anyway. There are no serious doctors, nutritionists nor researchers who have any doubt whatsoever regarding what the roles and relationships of food and fat are in the human body. You're obviously just delusional. So good luck with that, I hope you can get past your issues and improve your life some day.
        9mo ago
    - indecisive_user 9mo ago
      Then how does ozempic, whose primary mechanism of action is to decrease appetite, work for obese people? Yes, your body will compensate somewhat for caloric deficit, and yes, when you gain enough fat mass your adipocytes will divide, creating more/stronger hunger signals that encourage weight gain moreso than someone who was never obese. But your body is not magic. If you feed it a sufficiently low amount of calories, it has to break down energy stores, e.g. fat, to make up the difference in energy requirements.
      - mmooss 9mo ago
        > Then how does ozempic, whose primary mechanism of action is to decrease appetite, work for obese people? That is a very interesting question. > your body is not magic. But it is a complex, highly adaptable system. The simplistic formula of calorie input = output is highly misleading. > If you feed it a sufficiently low amount of calories Sure, if you starve yourself, you'll start transitioning to dust pretty soon.
        indecisive_user 9mo ago
        Somewhere between obese and dust you'll eventually hit a healthy weight. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2495396/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2495396/
        mmooss 9mo ago
        That's a report on one person under direct medical supervision. The general consensus, afaik, is that starving yourself doesn't work, at least not more than short term - the weight comes right back.
    - onefootincode 9mo ago
      It is a disease as in “your metabolism is slow” so you need to cut food even more. It is a disease as “you have problem with controlling your impulses and therefore crave food” Psychological diseases are not better or worse from psychical/metabolic ones. They are real, and for some of them we have or we develop medicine. Nobody is claiming that obesity can’t be a result of a disease, but under the hood it always ends up as: calories surplus is stored as fat.
      - sfn42 9mo ago
        Slow metabolism is a bit of a myth. By that I mean that it's not strictly wrong to say someone has a slow metabolism, but metabolism is an expression of your activity level so what you're really saying is the person is sedentary. If the person starts being more active their metabolism will necessarily increase. So, slow metabolism is not a disease, it's not a genetic disorder, it is simply a result of the fact that someone is spending too much time on the couch. I think this gets lost a lot when people talk about "slow metabolism", they turn it into this thing they're just helpless to influence, like they're just cursed with a slow metabolism and that's that. It's not like that at all, which is why I don't like the term. It just hides the reality of the situation.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        What is all that based on?
        sfn42 9mo ago
        Knowledge and understanding.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        So nothing.
accidentallfact 9mo ago
Let's say there is a new discovery tomorrow - there is a virus that lives in your mitochondria, and makes them unable to produce energy. We can make a vaccine against it, and nobody will ever get fat. Would you be against the vaccine?
- sfn42 9mo ago
  Why would I be against that? I'm not against ozempic either. I'm just against people who throw their hands in the air, say "my fatness is a disease" and continue eating 4000 calories a day while hardly moving at all. And just to be clear I'm not against the fatness - if you want to be fat that's fine, I don't care. It's your life. And if you want to say it's a mental disorder that's fine too, addiction is real and I know first hand that it's hard to resist good food and get off the couch. Just don't claim there's nothing to be done about it. There is. I and many people I know have successfully lost weight by eating less and moving more. I've also gained weight by eating too much and moving too little. Because that's literally how it works, for everyone in the entire world. Sure it's possible to have some disease or disorder that prevents you from gaining weight by preventing you from utilizing the calories in your food. Or parasites can steal your calories. But if you aren't eating, your body still needs energy. It can't just choose to not use energy, energy is required to live. Without energy the heart doesn't beat, the lungs don't breathe, the brain doesn't brain, the muscles don't work. It's not like the body's just wasting energy, it uses as much as it has to. It's a fine tuned machine. So it can't just use less - the only way to use less energy is to spend less by moving less. Maybe the body can reduce it slightly by adjusting organ activity and such, but not much. This is why we breathe oxygen and exhale CO2. Oxygen is literally used to burn calories, CO2 is the product of that combustion. Just like in a fire. When you exert yourself the body is spending more energy so it needs more oxygen and produces more CO2, that's why we need to breathe faster and our heart beats faster to get the oxygen to where it's needed and get rid of all the CO2. When you relax, your pulse and breathing lowers because you're burning very little. Now, with this understanding of basic body functions it's obvious that moving more and eating less is how you lose weight. There is no question about it, it's just clear as day and absolutely indisputable.
  - 9mo ago

by sfn42 9mo ago

mmooss 9mo ago

That's not actually what the evidence says, overwhelmingly.

sfn42 9mo ago
Share to share any of it?
- mmooss 9mo ago
  Always a fair request. I don't know it well enough or have time at the moment, but afaik it's the medical consensus: Obesity is a disease, (mostly) not a result of behavior. Eating less and/or more activity doesn't cure people; iirc bodies adjust to retain the same amount of fat, etc. under the new conditions.
  - sfn42 9mo ago
    I don't know where you get your science man but I'm about 100% sure what you just said is completely false. Not even remotely controversial just flat out wrong.
    - mmooss 9mo ago
      What I said is commonplace if you look around.
      - sfn42 9mo ago
        Yeah, beliefs commonly held by people who would rather make excuses than improve their lives.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        It's just baseless nonsense. Doctors and researchers say otherwise.
        sfn42 9mo ago
        And you still haven't found the time to show me any of them.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        Show us a basis for what you say.
        sfn42 9mo ago
        I asked first. You're the one claiming all this scientific and expert consensus. I'm just talking common sense stuff that pretty much everyone agree on. This is simply the basics of how the body works. I could take some time to find some sources but so could you and you aren't so why should I? It's pretty clear that you're thoroughly convinced of your own bullshit anyway, if you had any interest at all in finding the truth you'd do some light googling and find that pretty much everything I'm saying is true. I'm not interested in wasting my time finding arbitrary sources for common knowledge that you're just going to ignore anyway. You don't have to find sources for me, I know they don't exist and if you find anything it's going to be obvious bullshit anyway. There are no serious doctors, nutritionists nor researchers who have any doubt whatsoever regarding what the roles and relationships of food and fat are in the human body. You're obviously just delusional. So good luck with that, I hope you can get past your issues and improve your life some day.
        9mo ago
  - indecisive_user 9mo ago
    Then how does ozempic, whose primary mechanism of action is to decrease appetite, work for obese people? Yes, your body will compensate somewhat for caloric deficit, and yes, when you gain enough fat mass your adipocytes will divide, creating more/stronger hunger signals that encourage weight gain moreso than someone who was never obese. But your body is not magic. If you feed it a sufficiently low amount of calories, it has to break down energy stores, e.g. fat, to make up the difference in energy requirements.
    - mmooss 9mo ago
      > Then how does ozempic, whose primary mechanism of action is to decrease appetite, work for obese people? That is a very interesting question. > your body is not magic. But it is a complex, highly adaptable system. The simplistic formula of calorie input = output is highly misleading. > If you feed it a sufficiently low amount of calories Sure, if you starve yourself, you'll start transitioning to dust pretty soon.
      - indecisive_user 9mo ago
        Somewhere between obese and dust you'll eventually hit a healthy weight. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2495396/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2495396/
        mmooss 9mo ago
        That's a report on one person under direct medical supervision. The general consensus, afaik, is that starving yourself doesn't work, at least not more than short term - the weight comes right back.
  - onefootincode 9mo ago
    It is a disease as in “your metabolism is slow” so you need to cut food even more. It is a disease as “you have problem with controlling your impulses and therefore crave food” Psychological diseases are not better or worse from psychical/metabolic ones. They are real, and for some of them we have or we develop medicine. Nobody is claiming that obesity can’t be a result of a disease, but under the hood it always ends up as: calories surplus is stored as fat.
    - sfn42 9mo ago
      Slow metabolism is a bit of a myth. By that I mean that it's not strictly wrong to say someone has a slow metabolism, but metabolism is an expression of your activity level so what you're really saying is the person is sedentary. If the person starts being more active their metabolism will necessarily increase. So, slow metabolism is not a disease, it's not a genetic disorder, it is simply a result of the fact that someone is spending too much time on the couch. I think this gets lost a lot when people talk about "slow metabolism", they turn it into this thing they're just helpless to influence, like they're just cursed with a slow metabolism and that's that. It's not like that at all, which is why I don't like the term. It just hides the reality of the situation.
      - mmooss 9mo ago
        What is all that based on?
        sfn42 9mo ago
        Knowledge and understanding.
        mmooss 9mo ago
        So nothing.

accidentallfact 9mo ago

Let's say there is a new discovery tomorrow - there is a virus that lives in your mitochondria, and makes them unable to produce energy. We can make a vaccine against it, and nobody will ever get fat. Would you be against the vaccine?

sfn42 9mo ago
Why would I be against that? I'm not against ozempic either. I'm just against people who throw their hands in the air, say "my fatness is a disease" and continue eating 4000 calories a day while hardly moving at all. And just to be clear I'm not against the fatness - if you want to be fat that's fine, I don't care. It's your life. And if you want to say it's a mental disorder that's fine too, addiction is real and I know first hand that it's hard to resist good food and get off the couch. Just don't claim there's nothing to be done about it. There is. I and many people I know have successfully lost weight by eating less and moving more. I've also gained weight by eating too much and moving too little. Because that's literally how it works, for everyone in the entire world. Sure it's possible to have some disease or disorder that prevents you from gaining weight by preventing you from utilizing the calories in your food. Or parasites can steal your calories. But if you aren't eating, your body still needs energy. It can't just choose to not use energy, energy is required to live. Without energy the heart doesn't beat, the lungs don't breathe, the brain doesn't brain, the muscles don't work. It's not like the body's just wasting energy, it uses as much as it has to. It's a fine tuned machine. So it can't just use less - the only way to use less energy is to spend less by moving less. Maybe the body can reduce it slightly by adjusting organ activity and such, but not much. This is why we breathe oxygen and exhale CO2. Oxygen is literally used to burn calories, CO2 is the product of that combustion. Just like in a fire. When you exert yourself the body is spending more energy so it needs more oxygen and produces more CO2, that's why we need to breathe faster and our heart beats faster to get the oxygen to where it's needed and get rid of all the CO2. When you relax, your pulse and breathing lowers because you're burning very little. Now, with this understanding of basic body functions it's obvious that moving more and eating less is how you lose weight. There is no question about it, it's just clear as day and absolutely indisputable.
- 9mo ago