8 ms·

I guess replies on this thread are evident that Mozilla has lost much of the trust and goodwill it once enjoyed. Admittedly I am also very skeptical that Mozill

by nusl 9mo ago

I guess replies on this thread are evident that Mozilla has lost much of the trust and goodwill it once enjoyed. Admittedly I am also very skeptical that Mozilla has the ability or genuine interest to make this work.

rzmmm 9mo ago
I'm hopeful. The open source AI ecosystem could benefit from large players like Mozilla making moves.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  In what world is Mozilla large?
  - rzmmm 9mo ago
    Maybe influential would be a better word choice. Firefox has 100M+ users.
Larrikin 9mo ago
There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Sometimes with valid complaints. But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome and justifies it over Firefox for a very shallow or outdated reason. Firefox would do well to listen to some of the criticism about the browser and ignore the noise about anything else There's also the cohort of bad web developers that only test on Chrome
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  Including everyone that ships Chrome with their application as "native" app. VSCode gets a pass, because apparently it is the only programmer's editor that many only care about providing plugins nowadays.
  - no_wizard 9mo ago
    The ubiquity of their plugin model is why. Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer
    - pjmlp 9mo ago
      Yeah, and with it Eclipse wins a second time, especially on embedded where Eclipse CDT forks were replaced by VSCode forks. "Project Ticino: Microsoft's Erich Gamma on Visual Studio Code past, present, and future" https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_code/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_cod...
    - embedding-shape 9mo ago
      > Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer Huh, never heard about this before, and took a look at emacs and vim/neovim as those are the two most popular editors I know of, neither can run VS code plugins, that'd be crazy if true.
      - freedomben 9mo ago
        Very long time vim/neovim user here. I can't remember names atm and can't check, but I have definitely seen plugins that run a headless or subset of VScode in the background to pull info from it. It may not be super common, but it is being done
        devsda 9mo ago
        You are probably referring to language support plug-ins. IIRC, debugger support for java needed a component from one of the official plug-ins.
      - WorldMaker 9mo ago
        If you count LSP (Language Server Protocol) as a VSCode plugin-compatible layer as LSP was built and standardized by the VSCode team (so many do), then Emacs and Neovim are full of VSCode-compatible plugins today. One of Neovim's selling points right now over bare Vim is better/more direct LSP support.
- morcus 9mo ago
  As someone that uses Firefox as my main browser on desktop and mobile, I am curious here - what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? I'm using 3+ year old hardware that was mid-range even when it was new and it seems to do everything I would want with reasonable performance.
  - soganess 9mo ago
    Major problems with Firefox include: - full uBlock support - the ability to still be themed - first-party isolation ...Okay, okay, I’m being too cheeky. The common wisdom is that overall Firefox can feel bottlenecked at render and draw times (“less snappy”). That could be a result of a slower JavaScript engine (takes longer to get to drawing), or a result of poorer hardware acceleration (slower drawing), or a less optimized multiprocessing/multithreading model (more resource contention when drawing). I honestly can't see it in the real world, but synthetic benchmark are pretty clear on that front.
  - Yoric 9mo ago
    Hum. I have at home 13 year old hardware running Firefox and no performance complaints.
  - LunaSea 9mo ago
    > what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? If you are a (the) leading browser like Firefox once was, the "what are the complaints?" is the right question. If you are a minor browser like Firefox currently is (~2.5% market share), the "what is it doing better?" is the correct question.
    - jampekka 9mo ago
      The Firefox market share was eaten largely by the enormous and legally dubious marketing campaigns by Google and Microsoft. Hard to see how Mozilla could compete with constant forced nags and defaults in the most widely used websites and operating systems.
      - LunaSea 9mo ago
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  I use Firefox almost exclusively on desktop and android and I'm still pretty critical of it. Especially because I know I'm one of very few people that uses it that much.
- EvanAnderson 9mo ago
  > There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. I don't have a problem w/ Firefox not being perfect. I have a problem with the Mozilla Foundation spending money on seemingly random other stuff and not on Firefox.
- account42 9mo ago
  > But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome Pure cope
- lamontcg 9mo ago
  It really seems like all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. People know it is wrong to stay on Chrome and empower Google to the extent that it is, but they're stuck on that workflow and don't want to change, so they find nits to pick about firefox and get very LOUD about that. Then it becomes Mozill's fault that they're still using Chrome, and you can't blame them for anything.
  - hu3 9mo ago
    > all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. Sorry this is too handwavy for me. According to this logic, Mozilla is likely going to die believing it did nothing wrong.
    - lamontcg 9mo ago
      It is going to die because it won't ever be perfect enough, while Google will win because the vastly more important problems with Google's control are just the status quo.
- pessimizer 9mo ago
  > There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Nobody has ever complained about anything not being perfect. That's just something dishonest people say when they want to avoid mentioning specific criticisms.
giancarlostoro 9mo ago
The other problem is, they will eventually axe this initiative if it doesn't produce anything meaningful to them, and will have been wasted resources that could have gone to Firefox itself.
mmooss 9mo ago
> I guess replies on this thread are evident that Mozilla has lost much of the trust and goodwill it once enjoyed. Admittedly I am also very skeptical that Mozilla has the ability or genuine interest to make this work. That reverses cause and effect to a great degree. Many are very skeptical because they read everyone slamming it. It's a mob psychology.
Yoric 9mo ago
I feel that, at some point around the Brendan Eich-gate, the Internet decided that Mozilla was always wrong. Change the shape of tabs? We received rape threats. Change it back? Bomb threats. Bringing in new APIs for add-ons that make Firefox faster, more secure, more stable and doesn't break all the time? No, we want addon $X, we don't care about security. I'm not going to claim that everything Mozilla has done is right, but the bad will of the tech crowd is a bit exhausting. Writing this as a former Firefox contributor.
- steveklabnik 9mo ago
  I never worked on Firefox, and am often critical of Mozilla, but I can second this sentiment. It's seemed like everything Mozilla does makes everyone mad, all the time. It's frustrating.
  - oever 9mo ago
    I'm still happy with mozilla. Keep it up!
  - lamontcg 9mo ago
    Also, compared to the scale of harm that Google does and the risk of it de facto controlling the web with the chromium engine, all the things that Mozilla does to piss people off should be small potatoes.
- encom 9mo ago
  As a former Firefox user, I got fed up with the constant change for the sake of change. Why change the tabs? They were fine the way they were. People got mad about the addon situation since it broke their workflows because of vague technical reasons. And Mozilla usually ignored user protests while pointing at telemetry, and did whatever they wanted to, users be damned. At least that's how it looked from this side. I switched to Vivaldi some 4-5 years ago, and it looks and works pretty much the same since I started using it. New features and changes have happened, but they've been able to be ignored/disabled/hidden without doing CSS brain surgery. If/when the Google Adblockerblocker changes trickles down to Vivaldi I may have to crawl back to Firefox, but I dread the prospect.

by nusl 9mo ago

rzmmm 9mo ago

I'm hopeful. The open source AI ecosystem could benefit from large players like Mozilla making moves.

wolvoleo 9mo ago
In what world is Mozilla large?
- rzmmm 9mo ago
  Maybe influential would be a better word choice. Firefox has 100M+ users.

Larrikin 9mo ago

There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Sometimes with valid complaints. But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome and justifies it over Firefox for a very shallow or outdated reason. Firefox would do well to listen to some of the criticism about the browser and ignore the noise about anything else There's also the cohort of bad web developers that only test on Chrome

pjmlp 9mo ago
Including everyone that ships Chrome with their application as "native" app. VSCode gets a pass, because apparently it is the only programmer's editor that many only care about providing plugins nowadays.
- no_wizard 9mo ago
  The ubiquity of their plugin model is why. Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    Yeah, and with it Eclipse wins a second time, especially on embedded where Eclipse CDT forks were replaced by VSCode forks. "Project Ticino: Microsoft's Erich Gamma on Visual Studio Code past, present, and future" https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_code/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/28/erich_gamma_on_vs_cod...
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    > Near all editors have a VS code plugin compatible layer Huh, never heard about this before, and took a look at emacs and vim/neovim as those are the two most popular editors I know of, neither can run VS code plugins, that'd be crazy if true.
    - freedomben 9mo ago
      Very long time vim/neovim user here. I can't remember names atm and can't check, but I have definitely seen plugins that run a headless or subset of VScode in the background to pull info from it. It may not be super common, but it is being done
      - devsda 9mo ago
        You are probably referring to language support plug-ins. IIRC, debugger support for java needed a component from one of the official plug-ins.
    - WorldMaker 9mo ago
      If you count LSP (Language Server Protocol) as a VSCode plugin-compatible layer as LSP was built and standardized by the VSCode team (so many do), then Emacs and Neovim are full of VSCode-compatible plugins today. One of Neovim's selling points right now over bare Vim is better/more direct LSP support.
morcus 9mo ago
As someone that uses Firefox as my main browser on desktop and mobile, I am curious here - what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? I'm using 3+ year old hardware that was mid-range even when it was new and it seems to do everything I would want with reasonable performance.
- soganess 9mo ago
  Major problems with Firefox include: - full uBlock support - the ability to still be themed - first-party isolation ...Okay, okay, I’m being too cheeky. The common wisdom is that overall Firefox can feel bottlenecked at render and draw times (“less snappy”). That could be a result of a slower JavaScript engine (takes longer to get to drawing), or a result of poorer hardware acceleration (slower drawing), or a less optimized multiprocessing/multithreading model (more resource contention when drawing). I honestly can't see it in the real world, but synthetic benchmark are pretty clear on that front.
- Yoric 9mo ago
  Hum. I have at home 13 year old hardware running Firefox and no performance complaints.
- LunaSea 9mo ago
  > what exactly are the complaints with Firefox? If you are a (the) leading browser like Firefox once was, the "what are the complaints?" is the right question. If you are a minor browser like Firefox currently is (~2.5% market share), the "what is it doing better?" is the correct question.
  - jampekka 9mo ago
    The Firefox market share was eaten largely by the enormous and legally dubious marketing campaigns by Google and Microsoft. Hard to see how Mozilla could compete with constant forced nags and defaults in the most widely used websites and operating systems.
    - LunaSea 9mo ago
wolvoleo 9mo ago
I use Firefox almost exclusively on desktop and android and I'm still pretty critical of it. Especially because I know I'm one of very few people that uses it that much.
EvanAnderson 9mo ago
> There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. I don't have a problem w/ Firefox not being perfect. I have a problem with the Mozilla Foundation spending money on seemingly random other stuff and not on Firefox.
account42 9mo ago
> But if you dig deeper nearly always the commenter is using a version of Chrome Pure cope
lamontcg 9mo ago
It really seems like all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. People know it is wrong to stay on Chrome and empower Google to the extent that it is, but they're stuck on that workflow and don't want to change, so they find nits to pick about firefox and get very LOUD about that. Then it becomes Mozill's fault that they're still using Chrome, and you can't blame them for anything.
- hu3 9mo ago
  > all the complaints about firefox are mostly ego-deflection. Sorry this is too handwavy for me. According to this logic, Mozilla is likely going to die believing it did nothing wrong.
  - lamontcg 9mo ago
    It is going to die because it won't ever be perfect enough, while Google will win because the vastly more important problems with Google's control are just the status quo.
pessimizer 9mo ago
> There is always a pile on on Firebox for not being perfect. Nobody has ever complained about anything not being perfect. That's just something dishonest people say when they want to avoid mentioning specific criticisms.

giancarlostoro 9mo ago

The other problem is, they will eventually axe this initiative if it doesn't produce anything meaningful to them, and will have been wasted resources that could have gone to Firefox itself.

mmooss 9mo ago

> I guess replies on this thread are evident that Mozilla has lost much of the trust and goodwill it once enjoyed. Admittedly I am also very skeptical that Mozilla has the ability or genuine interest to make this work. That reverses cause and effect to a great degree. Many are very skeptical because they read everyone slamming it. It's a mob psychology.

Yoric 9mo ago

I feel that, at some point around the Brendan Eich-gate, the Internet decided that Mozilla was always wrong. Change the shape of tabs? We received rape threats. Change it back? Bomb threats. Bringing in new APIs for add-ons that make Firefox faster, more secure, more stable and doesn't break all the time? No, we want addon $X, we don't care about security. I'm not going to claim that everything Mozilla has done is right, but the bad will of the tech crowd is a bit exhausting. Writing this as a former Firefox contributor.

steveklabnik 9mo ago
I never worked on Firefox, and am often critical of Mozilla, but I can second this sentiment. It's seemed like everything Mozilla does makes everyone mad, all the time. It's frustrating.
- oever 9mo ago
  I'm still happy with mozilla. Keep it up!
- lamontcg 9mo ago
  Also, compared to the scale of harm that Google does and the risk of it de facto controlling the web with the chromium engine, all the things that Mozilla does to piss people off should be small potatoes.
encom 9mo ago
As a former Firefox user, I got fed up with the constant change for the sake of change. Why change the tabs? They were fine the way they were. People got mad about the addon situation since it broke their workflows because of vague technical reasons. And Mozilla usually ignored user protests while pointing at telemetry, and did whatever they wanted to, users be damned. At least that's how it looked from this side. I switched to Vivaldi some 4-5 years ago, and it looks and works pretty much the same since I started using it. New features and changes have happened, but they've been able to be ignored/disabled/hidden without doing CSS brain surgery. If/when the Google Adblockerblocker changes trickles down to Vivaldi I may have to crawl back to Firefox, but I dread the prospect.