49 ms·

She was not blocking traffic. Video of the street shows vehicles (including some that appear to be ICE) going by her just fine prior to the escalation, like reg

She was not blocking traffic. Video of the street shows vehicles (including some that appear to be ICE) going by her just fine prior to the escalation, like regular city traffic with someone doing something weird. > And definitionally, it is only "murder" if a court finds it to be so through a correct application of the law Man, do you "people" all get your talking points from the same septic tank or what? You don't get to tone police the use of the word murder by saying we must only ever use one narrow legal definition. This whole situation has been debated to death, and I'm not going to respond to your shotgun blast of FUD line by line. Put simply, needlessly escalating situations so they're likely to result in death and mayhem is not the behavior we expect from real law enforcement officers - regardless of what their suspect may have done. In a society based around individual liberty and limited government, why you would chose to empathize with government agents rather than your own fellow citizen is beyond me. But my only real question is how many more Americans need to be killed before you admit that maybe us critics have a point?

fzeroracer 10mo ago
> But my only real question is how many more Americans need to be killed before you admit that maybe us critics have a point? Unfortunately, they will never admit this, because either they believe every action by ICE is justified or they're straight up an agent of the government. It doesn't matter if you show them videos of ICE agents hitting protesters with their car and doing the exact thing they demonize [1], or if they walk up and assault people for using their first amendment rights [2], or if they spray people point blank with pepper spray [3] or if they ram people through red lights [4] or if they knee people in the face repeatedly when they're complying [5] or if they shove someone onto oncoming traffic and almost get them killed by a bus [6] or walking up to people and asking 'papers, please' [7]. They will conveniently disengage or shift the argument away. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1pjye82/ice_agents_in_minneapolis_mn_hit_a_community/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1pjye82/ice_agen... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb564f/minneapolis_bovino_leads_the_charge_on_protesters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb564f/minnea... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb88n3/ice_agent_in_minneapolis_point_blank_pepper/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb88n3/ice_ag... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qaw2e9/ice_in_minneapolis_ramming_civilian_cars_through/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qaw2e9/ice_in... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9p1dp/man_kneed_in_face_by_ice/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9p1dp/man_kn... [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9xczh/ice_pushes_man_into_oncoming_traffic/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9xczh/ice_pu... [7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhB7g7LU0Wc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhB7g7LU0Wc
zahlman 10mo ago
[flagged]
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- ratrace 10mo ago
  > I do not understand why my comments are flagged. Entertaining the idea that they could be wrong goes against their principles.
  - mindslight 10mo ago
    No, endlessly going around in circles responding to the same emotional (and often factually wrong) talking points is an abuse of our principles, and we're finally starting to say we've had enough of it. I'm a libertarian who actually believes in a society based around individual liberty and limited government, and doesn't just pay lip service to it. If we had a blue-flavored government, and it was performing similarly liberty-abhorrent actions on a different topic, I would be criticizing those as well. But we don't, and the current government has escalated so far beyond even the hanging-by-a-thread norms that we previously had, I think it's utterly naive to think any of this is about "immigration enforcement" in the first place.
    - zahlman 10mo ago
      > endlessly going around in circles responding to the same emotional (and often factually wrong) talking points is an abuse of our principles I don't know who "our" refers to, but it certainly is an abuse of my principles. Which is exactly why I do not make emotional appeals in my comments, and stick to what I can factually verify, including with timestamps in video footage and citations of the relevant legal standards. And why I clearly argue for where others are factually wrong instead of making blanket assertions without evidence. It is my interlocutors who are making emotional appeals and claims that are not supported by the evidence, up to the point of accusing me of "lying" about video depicting things even as I clearly point to the exact points in the video that clearly depict them.

fzeroracer 10mo ago

> But my only real question is how many more Americans need to be killed before you admit that maybe us critics have a point? Unfortunately, they will never admit this, because either they believe every action by ICE is justified or they're straight up an agent of the government. It doesn't matter if you show them videos of ICE agents hitting protesters with their car and doing the exact thing they demonize [1], or if they walk up and assault people for using their first amendment rights [2], or if they spray people point blank with pepper spray [3] or if they ram people through red lights [4] or if they knee people in the face repeatedly when they're complying [5] or if they shove someone onto oncoming traffic and almost get them killed by a bus [6] or walking up to people and asking 'papers, please' [7]. They will conveniently disengage or shift the argument away. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1pjye82/ice_agents_in_minneapolis_mn_hit_a_community/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1pjye82/ice_agen... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb564f/minneapolis_bovino_leads_the_charge_on_protesters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb564f/minnea... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb88n3/ice_agent_in_minneapolis_point_blank_pepper/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qb88n3/ice_ag... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qaw2e9/ice_in_minneapolis_ramming_civilian_cars_through/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qaw2e9/ice_in... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9p1dp/man_kneed_in_face_by_ice/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9p1dp/man_kn... [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9xczh/ice_pushes_man_into_oncoming_traffic/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9xczh/ice_pu... [7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhB7g7LU0Wc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhB7g7LU0Wc

zahlman 10mo ago

[flagged]

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
ratrace 10mo ago
> I do not understand why my comments are flagged. Entertaining the idea that they could be wrong goes against their principles.
- mindslight 10mo ago
  No, endlessly going around in circles responding to the same emotional (and often factually wrong) talking points is an abuse of our principles, and we're finally starting to say we've had enough of it. I'm a libertarian who actually believes in a society based around individual liberty and limited government, and doesn't just pay lip service to it. If we had a blue-flavored government, and it was performing similarly liberty-abhorrent actions on a different topic, I would be criticizing those as well. But we don't, and the current government has escalated so far beyond even the hanging-by-a-thread norms that we previously had, I think it's utterly naive to think any of this is about "immigration enforcement" in the first place.
  - zahlman 10mo ago
    > endlessly going around in circles responding to the same emotional (and often factually wrong) talking points is an abuse of our principles I don't know who "our" refers to, but it certainly is an abuse of my principles. Which is exactly why I do not make emotional appeals in my comments, and stick to what I can factually verify, including with timestamps in video footage and citations of the relevant legal standards. And why I clearly argue for where others are factually wrong instead of making blanket assertions without evidence. It is my interlocutors who are making emotional appeals and claims that are not supported by the evidence, up to the point of accusing me of "lying" about video depicting things even as I clearly point to the exact points in the video that clearly depict them.