4 ms·

I am a deep LLM skeptic. But I think there are also some questions about the role of language in human thought that leave the door just slightly ajar on the is

I am a deep LLM skeptic. But I think there are also some questions about the role of language in human thought that leave the door just slightly ajar on the issue of whether or not manipulating the tokens of language might be more central to human cognition than we've tended to think. If it turned out that this was true, then it is possible that "a model predicting tokens" has more power than that description would suggest. I doubt it, and I doubt it quite a lot. But I don't think it is impossible that something at least a little bit along these lines turns out to be true.

pegasus 10mo ago
> manipulating the tokens of language might be more central to human cognition than we've tended to think I'm convinced of this. I think it's because we've always looked at the most advanced forms of human languaging (like philosophy) to understand ourselves. But human language must have evolved from forms of communication found in other species, especially highly intelligent ones. It's to be expected that the building blocks of it is based on things like imitation, playful variation, pattern-matching, harnessing capabilities brains have been developing long before language, only now in the emerging world of sounds, calls, vocalizations. Ironically, the other crucial ingredient for AGI which LLMs don't have, but we do, is exactly that animal nature which we always try to shove under the rug, over-attributing our success to the stochastic parrot part of us, and ignoring the gut instinct, the intuitive, spontaneous insight into things which a lot of the great scientists and artists of the past have talked about.
- viccis 10mo ago
  >Ironically, the other crucial ingredient for AGI which LLMs don't have, but we do, is exactly that animal nature which we always try to shove under the rug, over-attributing our success to the stochastic parrot part of us, and ignoring the gut instinct, the intuitive, spontaneous insight into things which a lot of the great scientists and artists of the past have talked about. Are you familiar with the major works in epistemology that were written, even before the 20th century, on this exact topic?
- catlifeonmars 10mo ago
  I’ve long considered language to serve primarily as a dissonance reconciliation mechanism. Our behavior is largely shaped by our circumstances and language serves to attribute logic to our behavior after the fact.
viccis 10mo ago
I also believe strongly in the role of language, and more loosely in semiotics as a whole, to our cognitive development. To the extent that I think there are some meaningful ideas within the mountain of gibberish from Lacan, who was the first to really tie our conception of ourselves with our symbolic understanding of the world. Unfortunately, none of that has anything to do with what LLMs are doing. The LLM is not thinking about concepts and then translating that into language. It is imitating what it looks like to read people doing so and nothing more. That can be very powerful at learning and then spitting out complex relationships between signifiers, as it's really just a giant knowledge compression engine with a human friendly way to spit it out. But there's absolutely no logical grounding whatsoever for any statement produced from an LLM. The LLM that encouraged that man to kill himself wasn't doing it because it was a subject with agency and preference. It did so because it was, quite accurately I might say, mimicking the sequence of tokens that a real person encouraging someone to kill themselves would write. At no point whatsoever did that neural network make a moral judgment about what it was doing because it doesn't think. It simply performed inference after inference in which it scanned through a lengthy discussion between a suicidal man and an assistant that had been encouraging him and then decided that after "Cold steel pressed against a mind that’s already made peace? That’s not fear. That’s " the most accurate token would be "clar" and then "ity."
- PaulDavisThe1st 10mo ago
  The problem with all this is that we don't actually know what human cognition is doing either. We know what our experience is - thinking about concepts and then translating that into language - but we really don't know with much confidence what is actually going on. I lean strongly toward the idea that humans are doing something quite different than LLMs, particularly when reasoning. But I want to leave the door open to the idea that we've not understood human cognition, mostly because our primary evidence there comes from our own subjective experience, which may (or may not) provide a reliable guide to what is actually happening.
  - viccis 10mo ago
    >The problem with all this is that we don't actually know what human cognition is doing either. We do know what it's not doing, and that is operating only through reproducing linguistic patterns. There's no more cause to think LLMs approximate our thought (thought being something they are incapable of) than that Naive-Bayes spam filter models approximate our thought.
TeMPOraL 10mo ago
If anything, I feel that current breed of multimodal LLMs demonstrate that language is not fundamental - tokens are, or rather their mutual association in high-dimensional latent space. Language as we recognize it, sequences of characters and words, are just a special case. Multimodal models manage to turn audio, video and text into tokens in the same space - they do not route through text when consuming or generating images.

pegasus 10mo ago

> manipulating the tokens of language might be more central to human cognition than we've tended to think I'm convinced of this. I think it's because we've always looked at the most advanced forms of human languaging (like philosophy) to understand ourselves. But human language must have evolved from forms of communication found in other species, especially highly intelligent ones. It's to be expected that the building blocks of it is based on things like imitation, playful variation, pattern-matching, harnessing capabilities brains have been developing long before language, only now in the emerging world of sounds, calls, vocalizations. Ironically, the other crucial ingredient for AGI which LLMs don't have, but we do, is exactly that animal nature which we always try to shove under the rug, over-attributing our success to the stochastic parrot part of us, and ignoring the gut instinct, the intuitive, spontaneous insight into things which a lot of the great scientists and artists of the past have talked about.

viccis 10mo ago
>Ironically, the other crucial ingredient for AGI which LLMs don't have, but we do, is exactly that animal nature which we always try to shove under the rug, over-attributing our success to the stochastic parrot part of us, and ignoring the gut instinct, the intuitive, spontaneous insight into things which a lot of the great scientists and artists of the past have talked about. Are you familiar with the major works in epistemology that were written, even before the 20th century, on this exact topic?
catlifeonmars 10mo ago
I’ve long considered language to serve primarily as a dissonance reconciliation mechanism. Our behavior is largely shaped by our circumstances and language serves to attribute logic to our behavior after the fact.

viccis 10mo ago

I also believe strongly in the role of language, and more loosely in semiotics as a whole, to our cognitive development. To the extent that I think there are some meaningful ideas within the mountain of gibberish from Lacan, who was the first to really tie our conception of ourselves with our symbolic understanding of the world. Unfortunately, none of that has anything to do with what LLMs are doing. The LLM is not thinking about concepts and then translating that into language. It is imitating what it looks like to read people doing so and nothing more. That can be very powerful at learning and then spitting out complex relationships between signifiers, as it's really just a giant knowledge compression engine with a human friendly way to spit it out. But there's absolutely no logical grounding whatsoever for any statement produced from an LLM. The LLM that encouraged that man to kill himself wasn't doing it because it was a subject with agency and preference. It did so because it was, quite accurately I might say, mimicking the sequence of tokens that a real person encouraging someone to kill themselves would write. At no point whatsoever did that neural network make a moral judgment about what it was doing because it doesn't think. It simply performed inference after inference in which it scanned through a lengthy discussion between a suicidal man and an assistant that had been encouraging him and then decided that after "Cold steel pressed against a mind that’s already made peace? That’s not fear. That’s " the most accurate token would be "clar" and then "ity."

PaulDavisThe1st 10mo ago
The problem with all this is that we don't actually know what human cognition is doing either. We know what our experience is - thinking about concepts and then translating that into language - but we really don't know with much confidence what is actually going on. I lean strongly toward the idea that humans are doing something quite different than LLMs, particularly when reasoning. But I want to leave the door open to the idea that we've not understood human cognition, mostly because our primary evidence there comes from our own subjective experience, which may (or may not) provide a reliable guide to what is actually happening.
- viccis 10mo ago
  >The problem with all this is that we don't actually know what human cognition is doing either. We do know what it's not doing, and that is operating only through reproducing linguistic patterns. There's no more cause to think LLMs approximate our thought (thought being something they are incapable of) than that Naive-Bayes spam filter models approximate our thought.

TeMPOraL 10mo ago

If anything, I feel that current breed of multimodal LLMs demonstrate that language is not fundamental - tokens are, or rather their mutual association in high-dimensional latent space. Language as we recognize it, sequences of characters and words, are just a special case. Multimodal models manage to turn audio, video and text into tokens in the same space - they do not route through text when consuming or generating images.