5 ms·

"Just award them with some stars or points or whatever, and they'll be happy." I wish these people would wake up and spend their time helping peers on a forum

by mikae1 9mo ago

"Just award them with some stars or points or whatever, and they'll be happy." I wish these people would wake up and spend their time helping peers on a forum for some open source project instead.

fauigerzigerk 9mo ago
There's a bunch of hyperactive people in those Apple "support" forums who don't actually help anyone. They respond to almost every discussion thread aggressively deflecting any criticism directed at Apple. They pretend to offer "solutions" so their posts don't come across as unconstructive, but their solutions are always essentially the same, often culminating in a factory reset. There is never any attempt to get to the bottom of anything or diagnose what the actual issue is. They are volunteering their time to make people shut up, bow their head in shame and go away. I don't think this is what you want in an open source project.
- lossyalgo 9mo ago
  That may be true to some extent but I am still often able to find some kind of answer, granted it's often just "NO, Apple doesn't do this".
- zarzavat 9mo ago
  Indeed. Apple should close those forums. It damages their brand to have such antagonistic people pretending to be support agents. A company of Apple's wealth could afford to have a small army of people in the Philippines do the same job with much less aggression.
  - xp84 9mo ago
    Wholeheartedly agree. The few times in my life that I’ve bothered to post there with a problem, it’s been all the more upsetting that the patronizing generic advice and scolding of the frustrated users, is coming from random volunteer fanbois on the Internet, not even paid Apple staff who contractually have to be positive about Apple. A company with such rabidly loyal supporters shouldn’t deploy them like this. And if it was wise back in 2010 when Apple software was for the most part quite good… it sure isn’t wise now when they’re reaching what I hope is a temporary nadir in quality.
  - immibis 9mo ago
    I don't think anything Apple does at this point can damage their brand. It's indestructible.
    - ArmadilloGang 9mo ago
      Tim Cook runs a well oiled machine. At some point, leadership will change. And I don’t think it is as simple as, “Just keep going what Tim was doing.” There are so many moving parts that it is nigh certain Apple will go through a period of brand damage when things begin to fall through the cracks. Will that fall be dramatic? Probably not. But I think you underestimate just how much a shift in leadership can tip the scales.
  - Barbing 9mo ago
    >small army Instead we get: https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/669252 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/669252 >”… Now, the few Apple engineers that get back to me for some of these issues and the Apple support as well often tell me that Apple really cares about customer feedback. I really want to believe this ... but it's so hard to believe it, if less than 1% of my submitted reports (yes, less than 1%, and it's probably much less) ever gets a response. A response, if it ever comes, can come after 3 months, or after 1 year, or after 3 years; only rarely does it come within 1 month. To some of the feedbacks, after getting a response from the Apple engineers, I responded, among other things, by asking if I'm doing something wrong with the way I submit the feedback reports. Because if I do something wrong, then that could be the reason why only so few of them are considered by the Apple engineers. But I never got any answer to that. I told them that it's frustrating sending so much feedback without ever knowing if it's helpful or not, and never got an answer. …” Why is this Apple’s path?
    - smsm42 9mo ago
      I pretty much expect 0 support from any major company unless I am covered with juicy Enterprise support contract. They are too big to care.
      - Barbing 9mo ago
        Same! Though— In my exp. their _support_ is fantastic which is another reason it’s odd they will simply leave countless _feedback_ submissions open nearly indefinitely. They ignore their free laborers!
- mikkupikku 9mo ago
  I wonder if other cult brands attract the same kind of personalities, or if Apple has somehow done something special to encourage it. When a Harley Davidson owner says he has a problem with his bike, do Harley zealots jump out of the woodwork to attack the dissenter and defend the brand from which they derive their personality?
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - bombcar 9mo ago
    Given that it appears in Windows, I presume if there was a Harley Davidson support forum, there'd be fanatics defending them there. (They do defend them IRL, it's "commonly known" that HDs have issues that the install base "overlooks".)
  - cruffle_duffle 9mo ago
    “ When a Harley Davidson owner says he has a problem with his bike, do Harley zealots jump out of the woodwork to attack the dissenter and defend the brand from which they derive their personality?” I’m no Harley owner but you and I both know the answer to that.
    - mikkupikku 9mo ago
      Honestly I'm not sure. Motorcycle interest might select against relevant personality traits/disorders. Maybe they bond over commiseration over Harley's decline (a narrative I've heard of)
    - Animats 9mo ago
      Fanatical supporters of brands with a high defect rate are a thing. Norton motorcycles. A broad range of English cars. Amiga computers.
  - ack_complete 9mo ago
    This shows up in a lot of other areas, like small game companies that have a devoted following. It can get pretty nasty because these types of people are able to be condescending just short of ToS, while baiting other people into crossing the line. A common thread is weak moderation or biased moderation. As a developer, it's easy to be blind to this because they're on "your side", but it's bad for the health of your support forums.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  Yes, fanbois, lecturing people that they're using it wrong. It's not just on Apple's forums, Microsoft has the same kind of guys. They tend to look really popular too because all the other fanbois upvote their comments. And not only there, many open-source software forums have the same problem.
- dostick 9mo ago
  Exactly same are the Google “support forums”. At least you know it’s not working as place to submit issue reports. It is better than other way, like Figma, 1Password and many others: a Support Forum with an army of yes-men “support specialists”. They would answer your query with basic troubleshooting and then will say that it will be passed to development team or will be considered, etc. perfectly designed system to pacify user and dismiss their report.
- 72deluxe 9mo ago
  Are those the people who recommend "fixes" like resetting the PRAM / NVRAM to solve application level issues, or who recommend removing all files from the Desktop to somehow speed up general responsiveness? The Apple pages are awash with them.
lossyalgo 9mo ago
Then we would have zero support, or they would shut down the forums entirely. Or are you implying that the companies would be forced to finally offer official support?
- xp84 9mo ago
  There is official support. Apple Support should be more deluged with callers, but they rely on these forum mod suckers to carry water for them and tell people it’s their fault to lessen that load.
nmeofthestate 9mo ago
For Windows support I assume it accrues some benefit to the unpaid support, like it contributes to them getting their Microsoft Certified Windows End User Support Helpful Guy badge.

by mikae1 9mo ago

"Just award them with some stars or points or whatever, and they'll be happy." I wish these people would wake up and spend their time helping peers on a forum for some open source project instead.

fauigerzigerk 9mo ago

There's a bunch of hyperactive people in those Apple "support" forums who don't actually help anyone. They respond to almost every discussion thread aggressively deflecting any criticism directed at Apple. They pretend to offer "solutions" so their posts don't come across as unconstructive, but their solutions are always essentially the same, often culminating in a factory reset. There is never any attempt to get to the bottom of anything or diagnose what the actual issue is. They are volunteering their time to make people shut up, bow their head in shame and go away. I don't think this is what you want in an open source project.

lossyalgo 9mo ago
That may be true to some extent but I am still often able to find some kind of answer, granted it's often just "NO, Apple doesn't do this".
zarzavat 9mo ago
Indeed. Apple should close those forums. It damages their brand to have such antagonistic people pretending to be support agents. A company of Apple's wealth could afford to have a small army of people in the Philippines do the same job with much less aggression.
- xp84 9mo ago
  Wholeheartedly agree. The few times in my life that I’ve bothered to post there with a problem, it’s been all the more upsetting that the patronizing generic advice and scolding of the frustrated users, is coming from random volunteer fanbois on the Internet, not even paid Apple staff who contractually have to be positive about Apple. A company with such rabidly loyal supporters shouldn’t deploy them like this. And if it was wise back in 2010 when Apple software was for the most part quite good… it sure isn’t wise now when they’re reaching what I hope is a temporary nadir in quality.
- immibis 9mo ago
  I don't think anything Apple does at this point can damage their brand. It's indestructible.
  - ArmadilloGang 9mo ago
    Tim Cook runs a well oiled machine. At some point, leadership will change. And I don’t think it is as simple as, “Just keep going what Tim was doing.” There are so many moving parts that it is nigh certain Apple will go through a period of brand damage when things begin to fall through the cracks. Will that fall be dramatic? Probably not. But I think you underestimate just how much a shift in leadership can tip the scales.
- Barbing 9mo ago
  >small army Instead we get: https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/669252 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/669252 >”… Now, the few Apple engineers that get back to me for some of these issues and the Apple support as well often tell me that Apple really cares about customer feedback. I really want to believe this ... but it's so hard to believe it, if less than 1% of my submitted reports (yes, less than 1%, and it's probably much less) ever gets a response. A response, if it ever comes, can come after 3 months, or after 1 year, or after 3 years; only rarely does it come within 1 month. To some of the feedbacks, after getting a response from the Apple engineers, I responded, among other things, by asking if I'm doing something wrong with the way I submit the feedback reports. Because if I do something wrong, then that could be the reason why only so few of them are considered by the Apple engineers. But I never got any answer to that. I told them that it's frustrating sending so much feedback without ever knowing if it's helpful or not, and never got an answer. …” Why is this Apple’s path?
  - smsm42 9mo ago
    I pretty much expect 0 support from any major company unless I am covered with juicy Enterprise support contract. They are too big to care.
    - Barbing 9mo ago
      Same! Though— In my exp. their _support_ is fantastic which is another reason it’s odd they will simply leave countless _feedback_ submissions open nearly indefinitely. They ignore their free laborers!
mikkupikku 9mo ago
I wonder if other cult brands attract the same kind of personalities, or if Apple has somehow done something special to encourage it. When a Harley Davidson owner says he has a problem with his bike, do Harley zealots jump out of the woodwork to attack the dissenter and defend the brand from which they derive their personality?
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- bombcar 9mo ago
  Given that it appears in Windows, I presume if there was a Harley Davidson support forum, there'd be fanatics defending them there. (They do defend them IRL, it's "commonly known" that HDs have issues that the install base "overlooks".)
- cruffle_duffle 9mo ago
  “ When a Harley Davidson owner says he has a problem with his bike, do Harley zealots jump out of the woodwork to attack the dissenter and defend the brand from which they derive their personality?” I’m no Harley owner but you and I both know the answer to that.
  - mikkupikku 9mo ago
    Honestly I'm not sure. Motorcycle interest might select against relevant personality traits/disorders. Maybe they bond over commiseration over Harley's decline (a narrative I've heard of)
  - Animats 9mo ago
    Fanatical supporters of brands with a high defect rate are a thing. Norton motorcycles. A broad range of English cars. Amiga computers.
- ack_complete 9mo ago
  This shows up in a lot of other areas, like small game companies that have a devoted following. It can get pretty nasty because these types of people are able to be condescending just short of ToS, while baiting other people into crossing the line. A common thread is weak moderation or biased moderation. As a developer, it's easy to be blind to this because they're on "your side", but it's bad for the health of your support forums.
wolvoleo 9mo ago
Yes, fanbois, lecturing people that they're using it wrong. It's not just on Apple's forums, Microsoft has the same kind of guys. They tend to look really popular too because all the other fanbois upvote their comments. And not only there, many open-source software forums have the same problem.
dostick 9mo ago
Exactly same are the Google “support forums”. At least you know it’s not working as place to submit issue reports. It is better than other way, like Figma, 1Password and many others: a Support Forum with an army of yes-men “support specialists”. They would answer your query with basic troubleshooting and then will say that it will be passed to development team or will be considered, etc. perfectly designed system to pacify user and dismiss their report.
72deluxe 9mo ago
Are those the people who recommend "fixes" like resetting the PRAM / NVRAM to solve application level issues, or who recommend removing all files from the Desktop to somehow speed up general responsiveness? The Apple pages are awash with them.

lossyalgo 9mo ago

Then we would have zero support, or they would shut down the forums entirely. Or are you implying that the companies would be forced to finally offer official support?

xp84 9mo ago
There is official support. Apple Support should be more deluged with callers, but they rely on these forum mod suckers to carry water for them and tell people it’s their fault to lessen that load.

nmeofthestate 9mo ago

For Windows support I assume it accrues some benefit to the unpaid support, like it contributes to them getting their Microsoft Certified Windows End User Support Helpful Guy badge.