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The author has a bizarre idea of what a computer science degree is about. Why would it teach cloud computing or dev ops? The idea is you learn those on your own

The author has a bizarre idea of what a computer science degree is about. Why would it teach cloud computing or dev ops? The idea is you learn those on your own.

tibbar 9mo ago
Why is this necessarily true?
- sys_64738 9mo ago
  A CS degree is there to teach you concepts and fundamentals that are the foundation of everything computing related. It doesn't generally chase after the latest fads.
  - tibbar 9mo ago
    Sure, but we need to update our definitions of concepts/fundamentals. A lot of this stuff has its own established theory and has been a core primitive for software engineering for many years. For example, the primitives of cloud computing are largely explained by papers published by Amazon, Google, and others in the early '00s (DynamoDB, Bigtable, etc.). If you want to explore massively parallel computation or container orchestration, etc, it would be natural to do that using a public cloud, although of course many of the platform-specific details are incidentals. Part of the story here is that the scale of computing has expanded enormously. The DB class I took in grad school was missing lots of interesting puzzle pieces around replication, consistency, storage formats, etc. There was a heavy focus on relational algebra and normalization forms, which is just... far from a complete treatment of the necessary topics. We need to extend our curricula beyond the theory that is require to execute binaries on individual desktops.
    - michaelsalim 9mo ago
      I do agree that the scale has expanded a lot. But this is true with any other fields. Does that mean that you need to learn everything? Well at some point it becomes unfeasible. See doctors for example, you learn a bit of everything. But then if you want to specialise, you choose one.
    - zipy124 9mo ago
      This is mostly software engineering not computer science though. That is but a small sub-section of computer science.
      - tibbar 9mo ago
        I just don't see the distinction. Looking at it from the other direction: most CS degrees will have you spend a lot of time looking at assembly language, computer architecture, and *nix tools. But none of these are mathematical inevitabilities - they're just a core part of the foundations of software engineering. However, in the decades since this curricula was established, it's clear that the foundation has expanded. Understanding how containerization works, how k8s and friends work, etc is just as important today.
        sys_64738 9mo ago
        Containerization would be covered in a lecture on OS Concepts. A CS degree isn't to teach you about using containerization. Take a course specific to that.
happytoexplain 9mo ago
If that's "the idea", then clearly we need a more holistic, useful degree to replace CS as "the" software degree.
- wakawaka28 9mo ago
  There has to be a balance of practical skills and theory in a useful degree, and most CS curricula are built that way. It should not be all about random hot tech because that always changes. You can easily learn tech from tutorials, because the tech is simple compared to theory. Theory is also important to be able to judge the merits of different technology and software designs.
- wrs 9mo ago
  Cloud computing is not some new fundamental area of computer science. It’s just virtual CPUs with networks and storage. My CS degree from 1987 is still working just fine in the cloud, because we learned about CPUs, virtualization, networks, and storage. They’re all a lot bigger and faster, with different APIs, but so what? Devops isn’t even a thing, it’s just a philosophy for doing ops. Ops is mostly state management, observability, and designing resilient systems, and we learned about those too in 1987. Admittedly there has been a lot of progress in distributed systems theory since then, but a CS degree is still where you’ll find it. School is typically the only time in your life that you’ll have the luxury of focusing on learning the fundamentals full time. After that, it’s a lot slower and has to be fit into the gaps.
- kibwen 9mo ago
  Despite what completely uninformed people may think, the field "computer science" is not about software development. It's a branch of mathematics. If you want an education in software development, those are offered by trade schools.
  - AnimalMuppet 9mo ago
    What I want is for universities to offer a degree in Software Engineering. That's a different field from Computer Science. You say that belongs in a trade school? I might agree, if you think trade schools and not universities should teach electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, and chemical engineering. But if chemical engineering belongs at a university, so does software engineering.
Ekaros 9mo ago
I am not sure abot devops. But Cloud Computing likely has lot of science behind it. When done properly. They are not any less complex systems to reason about than just code. And I mean it as understanding and designing cloud platforms. Not as deploying code to them.

The author has a bizarre idea of what a computer science degree is about. Why would it teach cloud computing or dev ops? The idea is you learn those on your own.

tibbar 9mo ago

Why is this necessarily true?

sys_64738 9mo ago
A CS degree is there to teach you concepts and fundamentals that are the foundation of everything computing related. It doesn't generally chase after the latest fads.
- tibbar 9mo ago
  Sure, but we need to update our definitions of concepts/fundamentals. A lot of this stuff has its own established theory and has been a core primitive for software engineering for many years. For example, the primitives of cloud computing are largely explained by papers published by Amazon, Google, and others in the early '00s (DynamoDB, Bigtable, etc.). If you want to explore massively parallel computation or container orchestration, etc, it would be natural to do that using a public cloud, although of course many of the platform-specific details are incidentals. Part of the story here is that the scale of computing has expanded enormously. The DB class I took in grad school was missing lots of interesting puzzle pieces around replication, consistency, storage formats, etc. There was a heavy focus on relational algebra and normalization forms, which is just... far from a complete treatment of the necessary topics. We need to extend our curricula beyond the theory that is require to execute binaries on individual desktops.
  - michaelsalim 9mo ago
    I do agree that the scale has expanded a lot. But this is true with any other fields. Does that mean that you need to learn everything? Well at some point it becomes unfeasible. See doctors for example, you learn a bit of everything. But then if you want to specialise, you choose one.
  - zipy124 9mo ago
    This is mostly software engineering not computer science though. That is but a small sub-section of computer science.
    - tibbar 9mo ago
      I just don't see the distinction. Looking at it from the other direction: most CS degrees will have you spend a lot of time looking at assembly language, computer architecture, and *nix tools. But none of these are mathematical inevitabilities - they're just a core part of the foundations of software engineering. However, in the decades since this curricula was established, it's clear that the foundation has expanded. Understanding how containerization works, how k8s and friends work, etc is just as important today.
      - sys_64738 9mo ago
        Containerization would be covered in a lecture on OS Concepts. A CS degree isn't to teach you about using containerization. Take a course specific to that.

happytoexplain 9mo ago

If that's "the idea", then clearly we need a more holistic, useful degree to replace CS as "the" software degree.

wakawaka28 9mo ago
There has to be a balance of practical skills and theory in a useful degree, and most CS curricula are built that way. It should not be all about random hot tech because that always changes. You can easily learn tech from tutorials, because the tech is simple compared to theory. Theory is also important to be able to judge the merits of different technology and software designs.
wrs 9mo ago
Cloud computing is not some new fundamental area of computer science. It’s just virtual CPUs with networks and storage. My CS degree from 1987 is still working just fine in the cloud, because we learned about CPUs, virtualization, networks, and storage. They’re all a lot bigger and faster, with different APIs, but so what? Devops isn’t even a thing, it’s just a philosophy for doing ops. Ops is mostly state management, observability, and designing resilient systems, and we learned about those too in 1987. Admittedly there has been a lot of progress in distributed systems theory since then, but a CS degree is still where you’ll find it. School is typically the only time in your life that you’ll have the luxury of focusing on learning the fundamentals full time. After that, it’s a lot slower and has to be fit into the gaps.
kibwen 9mo ago
Despite what completely uninformed people may think, the field "computer science" is not about software development. It's a branch of mathematics. If you want an education in software development, those are offered by trade schools.
- AnimalMuppet 9mo ago
  What I want is for universities to offer a degree in Software Engineering. That's a different field from Computer Science. You say that belongs in a trade school? I might agree, if you think trade schools and not universities should teach electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, and chemical engineering. But if chemical engineering belongs at a university, so does software engineering.

Ekaros 9mo ago

I am not sure abot devops. But Cloud Computing likely has lot of science behind it. When done properly. They are not any less complex systems to reason about than just code. And I mean it as understanding and designing cloud platforms. Not as deploying code to them.