4 ms·

or you just do it and be in the EU it's a clear anti-competive clause by a dominant market leader, such clauses tend to be void AFIK

atonse 9mo ago
Who is the dominant market leader? OpenAI dwarfs Anthropic. Most people still haven’t heard of Anthropic/Claude. (For the record, I use Claude code all day long. But it’s still pretty niche outside of programming.)
- andyferris 9mo ago
  We are discussing Claude Code clones - the market _is_ programming
- airstrike 9mo ago
  Those are different markets
- PeterStuer 9mo ago
  In agentic development Claude models rule the roost.
hinkley 9mo ago
It might suffice to just make it look like you’re European to keep their goons from harassing you, which hasn’t happened yet but will, because that’s how these stories always end. Get a PO Box for a credit card and VPN in through Europe.
- Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
  I think one might argue even a VPN might be enough. Theoretically someone might be European and can have American card or any other countries cards and it would generally be okay. So the only thing you kind of need to figure out is VPN and ProtonVPN provides free vpn service which does include EU servers access as well I wonder if Claude Code or these AI services block VPN access though. If they do, ehh, just buy a EU cheap vps (hetzner my beloved) and call it a day plus you also get a free dev box which can also run your code 24x7 and other factors too.
  - plausibility 9mo ago
    It’s pretty much table stakes to block or restrict or just investigate more closely if requests come from an IP address in a data centre provider or VPN provider ASN though. I worked at a cloud company a while ago, and if free tier user requests came from another cloud providers IPs we’d have to double check it wasn’t fraud since that happened more often than residential ranges.
  - PeterStuer 9mo ago
    Typically anti-geo restriction circumvention takes cloud IP origin blocks as a significant indicator. You'd have better luck with a 'residential' IP.
YetAnotherNick 9mo ago
What do you mean by void? Sure you cannot be sued for writing clone, in any country. All they can do is ban account and I think they can ban any account in EU.
- dathinab 9mo ago
  void means it's not legal and it's more or less as if the text there where just void/blank you can't violate a void clause in TOS or a contract so you can't get a ban/termination for violating a void clause they still can decide to not do business with you, after providing all service you already payed for and that is _if_ you can decide to not to business with individuals without providing a reason, in certain situations companies can't do so (mainly related to unfair competition, market power abuse etc.). And this is the point where my knowledge details get to thin to really if/when/how this could or could not apply here. > Sure you cannot be sued for writing clone, in any country. in countries where such a clause is valid/not-void, you very well can be sued for using Claude Code to work on/develop e.g. Open Code...
  - YetAnotherNick 9mo ago
    > so you can't get a ban/termination for violating a void clause > they still can decide to not do business with you What's the difference? > in countries where such a clause is valid/not-void, you very well can be sued for using Claude Code to work on/develop e.g. Open Code... Has anyone in any country ever got successfully sued for violating ToS terms like these? Try to read any ToS and think that average use doesn't violate at least some of them. Even the EU's own site contains things like "including but not limited to". [1]: https://europass.europa.eu/en/node/2161 https://europass.europa.eu/en/node/2161
    - dathinab 9mo ago
      > Has anyone in any country ever got successfully sued for violating ToS terms like these? yes, less private people but definitely companies > What's the difference? e.g. YT had been forced to reinstate (and not shadow ban) channels in the EU multiple times because judges ruled that terminations did not had legal basis and they don't have the right to arbitrarily refuse doing business with the people in question (for various reasons, including but not limited to it being clearly a retaliation for suing for right you have. Through the market dominant position of YT also played a non negligible role there). Or in other words, by itself it might not mean much but in combination with other laws, especially iff claude code because the marked dominant AI editor.

atonse 9mo ago

Who is the dominant market leader? OpenAI dwarfs Anthropic. Most people still haven’t heard of Anthropic/Claude. (For the record, I use Claude code all day long. But it’s still pretty niche outside of programming.)

andyferris 9mo ago
We are discussing Claude Code clones - the market _is_ programming
airstrike 9mo ago
Those are different markets
PeterStuer 9mo ago
In agentic development Claude models rule the roost.

hinkley 9mo ago

It might suffice to just make it look like you’re European to keep their goons from harassing you, which hasn’t happened yet but will, because that’s how these stories always end. Get a PO Box for a credit card and VPN in through Europe.

Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
I think one might argue even a VPN might be enough. Theoretically someone might be European and can have American card or any other countries cards and it would generally be okay. So the only thing you kind of need to figure out is VPN and ProtonVPN provides free vpn service which does include EU servers access as well I wonder if Claude Code or these AI services block VPN access though. If they do, ehh, just buy a EU cheap vps (hetzner my beloved) and call it a day plus you also get a free dev box which can also run your code 24x7 and other factors too.
- plausibility 9mo ago
  It’s pretty much table stakes to block or restrict or just investigate more closely if requests come from an IP address in a data centre provider or VPN provider ASN though. I worked at a cloud company a while ago, and if free tier user requests came from another cloud providers IPs we’d have to double check it wasn’t fraud since that happened more often than residential ranges.
- PeterStuer 9mo ago
  Typically anti-geo restriction circumvention takes cloud IP origin blocks as a significant indicator. You'd have better luck with a 'residential' IP.

YetAnotherNick 9mo ago

What do you mean by void? Sure you cannot be sued for writing clone, in any country. All they can do is ban account and I think they can ban any account in EU.

dathinab 9mo ago
void means it's not legal and it's more or less as if the text there where just void/blank you can't violate a void clause in TOS or a contract so you can't get a ban/termination for violating a void clause they still can decide to not do business with you, after providing all service you already payed for and that is _if_ you can decide to not to business with individuals without providing a reason, in certain situations companies can't do so (mainly related to unfair competition, market power abuse etc.). And this is the point where my knowledge details get to thin to really if/when/how this could or could not apply here. > Sure you cannot be sued for writing clone, in any country. in countries where such a clause is valid/not-void, you very well can be sued for using Claude Code to work on/develop e.g. Open Code...
- YetAnotherNick 9mo ago
  > so you can't get a ban/termination for violating a void clause > they still can decide to not do business with you What's the difference? > in countries where such a clause is valid/not-void, you very well can be sued for using Claude Code to work on/develop e.g. Open Code... Has anyone in any country ever got successfully sued for violating ToS terms like these? Try to read any ToS and think that average use doesn't violate at least some of them. Even the EU's own site contains things like "including but not limited to". [1]: https://europass.europa.eu/en/node/2161 https://europass.europa.eu/en/node/2161
  - dathinab 9mo ago
    > Has anyone in any country ever got successfully sued for violating ToS terms like these? yes, less private people but definitely companies > What's the difference? e.g. YT had been forced to reinstate (and not shadow ban) channels in the EU multiple times because judges ruled that terminations did not had legal basis and they don't have the right to arbitrarily refuse doing business with the people in question (for various reasons, including but not limited to it being clearly a retaliation for suing for right you have. Through the market dominant position of YT also played a non negligible role there). Or in other words, by itself it might not mean much but in combination with other laws, especially iff claude code because the marked dominant AI editor.