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If a middle-class white boy who literally never had a job before getting a sweet internship at some cutting edge technology company can eventually, through prac

by 001sky 14y ago

If a middle-class white boy who literally never had a job before getting a sweet internship at some cutting edge technology company can eventually, through practice, become a passable computer programmer, anyone can do it. -- This is not of the form you reference, though This is an argument about barriers to skill acquisition, and thus representative expression, not one of either innate or even actual ability or qualification level. Its not "conflating ability with opportunities" anymore than it is saying "there is learning by doing" and since the "doing is not evenly distributed"[1], therefore neither is the "learning".[2] Author is in part arguing that the only "doing" that matters is "branded doing" (ie, doing it for XYZ company or school), as as that is how the next level of doing is rationed, and there is therefore a recursive effect. This may or may not be a great argument, but I think its different than the one you allude to. In particular the low-threshold state and the (implied) recursive mechanism seem to have a more interesting dynamic. ______ [1] Or the option, etc. [2] This depends on (or implies) a certain elemental/relative triviality of the task.

natrius 14y ago
"This is an argument about barriers to skill acquisition" I don't see that argument in her post.
- 001sky 14y ago
  getting a sweet internship at some cutting edge technology Author is arguing/implying that overcoming this "gate" was the source of [the example's] later (developed, proven,etc) skill. It might not be a perfect argument, but its there IMHO. I think if you believe it's not a good argument/ point, its best to attack it directly. That is all.
  - natrius 14y ago
    I don't think she's saying that. Do white males without programming skills get programming internships at a higher rate? Are there even a significant number of people who take that path? Hiring is not the problem. Getting underrepresented folks to choose computer science in the first place is.
    - 001sky 14y ago
      Now I think you are attacking the point directly. I can't speak for the author but it seems to me that the person does believe this. viz "it’s a pretty fucking easy job..." etc [1] ___________ [1] The whole context is as follows: If there’s one thing I’ve learned after thirty-three years of being alive, it’s that if you see middle-class white boys flocking in droves to a particular career path, it’s a pretty fucking easy job and you should try and get yourself one like that. I guess that’s a little mean. Sorry, middle-class white boys. I’m not calling you dumb. I’m calling you soft.
mc32 14y ago
So then, are table tennis, boxing and basketball or gymnastics not meritocracies either and thus deserving of more representative demographics? Should those sports seek to find more balance in their professional profiles? Should leagues try to find and be incentivized to fill their ranks with underrepresented demographics? Are industry responsible or is the educational system responsible for developing interest and providing guidance to the newer generations (in addition to initiative by the student body)?
- 001sky 14y ago
  Note [2] This depends on (or implies) a certain elemental/relative triviality of the task. I think you missed that note [2] above. I'm not necessarily supporting or defending the position. The point was it was not as simple an argument to dismiss as was suggested in the Parent. Couple of points to consider, more generally: (1) Its not clear that the condition of footnote 2 holds, per-se; That being said (2) its also very far from clear that decisions of Merit (in the context discussed) are ever/always fully informed.[#] Ironically, the further away you get from footnote 2 in some areas, the less informed the key gatekeepers are. In other areas that might not be the case. These would be characterized by non-trivial skill obviously required, easily, cheaply, and repeatedly observable/measurable by multiple parties, etc. Timed running in 100m, would be an example of the latter.[##] But this is circumventing the actual argument by changing the relevant context. So its sort of a valid counter-argument, but its not quite-central to the point the Author was trying to make. ________ [#] see comment> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4658045 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4658045 [##] Still, this might not be the most diverse group if the olympics are your benchmark. But its non-trivial but highly specialized, and we can presume uneven native talent distrubution cannot be ruled out.
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    > I think you missed that note [2] above. I think you need to edit your posts more carefully. Clarity matters, particularly when you're discussing things in written form.
    - 14y ago

by 001sky 14y ago

natrius 14y ago

"This is an argument about barriers to skill acquisition" I don't see that argument in her post.

001sky 14y ago
getting a sweet internship at some cutting edge technology Author is arguing/implying that overcoming this "gate" was the source of [the example's] later (developed, proven,etc) skill. It might not be a perfect argument, but its there IMHO. I think if you believe it's not a good argument/ point, its best to attack it directly. That is all.
- natrius 14y ago
  I don't think she's saying that. Do white males without programming skills get programming internships at a higher rate? Are there even a significant number of people who take that path? Hiring is not the problem. Getting underrepresented folks to choose computer science in the first place is.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    Now I think you are attacking the point directly. I can't speak for the author but it seems to me that the person does believe this. viz "it’s a pretty fucking easy job..." etc [1] ___________ [1] The whole context is as follows: If there’s one thing I’ve learned after thirty-three years of being alive, it’s that if you see middle-class white boys flocking in droves to a particular career path, it’s a pretty fucking easy job and you should try and get yourself one like that. I guess that’s a little mean. Sorry, middle-class white boys. I’m not calling you dumb. I’m calling you soft.

mc32 14y ago

So then, are table tennis, boxing and basketball or gymnastics not meritocracies either and thus deserving of more representative demographics? Should those sports seek to find more balance in their professional profiles? Should leagues try to find and be incentivized to fill their ranks with underrepresented demographics? Are industry responsible or is the educational system responsible for developing interest and providing guidance to the newer generations (in addition to initiative by the student body)?

001sky 14y ago
Note [2] This depends on (or implies) a certain elemental/relative triviality of the task. I think you missed that note [2] above. I'm not necessarily supporting or defending the position. The point was it was not as simple an argument to dismiss as was suggested in the Parent. Couple of points to consider, more generally: (1) Its not clear that the condition of footnote 2 holds, per-se; That being said (2) its also very far from clear that decisions of Merit (in the context discussed) are ever/always fully informed.[#] Ironically, the further away you get from footnote 2 in some areas, the less informed the key gatekeepers are. In other areas that might not be the case. These would be characterized by non-trivial skill obviously required, easily, cheaply, and repeatedly observable/measurable by multiple parties, etc. Timed running in 100m, would be an example of the latter.[##] But this is circumventing the actual argument by changing the relevant context. So its sort of a valid counter-argument, but its not quite-central to the point the Author was trying to make. ________ [#] see comment> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4658045 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4658045 [##] Still, this might not be the most diverse group if the olympics are your benchmark. But its non-trivial but highly specialized, and we can presume uneven native talent distrubution cannot be ruled out.
- anthonyb 14y ago
  > I think you missed that note [2] above. I think you need to edit your posts more carefully. Clarity matters, particularly when you're discussing things in written form.
  - 14y ago