4 ms·

This conversation is not productive. This woman’s death was not about free speech and it’s not about Trump. It’s about decisions and actions that she made and

by kcplate 9mo ago

This conversation is not productive. This woman’s death was not about free speech and it’s not about Trump. It’s about decisions and actions that she made and the agent made in their interaction. There will be legal accountability performed by people who will see all of the available evidence, understand all of the policies, procedures, and legalities that govern something like this and will make judgments. Those people are not me and likely not you.

mindslight 9mo ago
Wow. I wrote a pretty substantive comment so you could see we have some common ground and I'm not just a "fAr lEfT wAcKo", but apparently that's "not productive". If you want to be done, sure, be done. I think we could have converged much quicker if you hadn't been leading with these kind of abstract-oblique points that demand adding nuance, but then avoiding the nuance. And also I've got to say, this last comment is a whole bunch of retrenching at "nobody can know" FUD. But at any rate, let us make no mistake: this incident is most certainly about our freedom of speech, which includes the freedom to criticize government agents in ways they may not personally appreciate. I did finally just watch a video of the run-up of where they surround the car. She was stopped across the street like an asshole, blaring her horn, and seemingly mocking/heckling the agents. Vehicles were going by her just fine (including some ICE vehicles), just as you'd expect in regular city traffic. But being an asshole is not illegal, and what she was doing looks to be exactly first-amendment protected activity - heckling ICE agents because she disagreed with what they were doing. Even if there is something there that ICE can legally stretch into a federal crime, it certainly doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a high stakes boxed-in gun-drawn escalation that induces a fight or flight response. And given that the killer had previously fucked around and found out about moving vehicles six months prior, his positioning and subsequent reaction would seem to be highly deliberate and likely even premeditated. Renee most certainly could have done many things differently, and I wish she had. But government agents also have a duty to execute their roles in good faith to minimize harm regardless of whom they're dealing with and what they've done. What these agents did here was the complete and utter opposite, making them responsible for her death.
- kcplate 9mo ago
  I realize this is difficult for people on this thread to accept, but unless you are someone selected for a jury evaluating this case your opinion, my opinion, the half dozen or more others opinions commenting about this situation on this thread, every pundit or talking head, every news agency, federal government officials, politicians, and even Trump’s opinion (unless he decides to preemptively pardon before any charges are brought, which is now a thing thanks to Biden) just doesn’t matter. Frankly at this point I am just tired of rehashing the same things over and over again. I will leave you with this as my final summary of my thought (which I have more than once articulated on this thread): The government has the ability to take your life from you. The legal bar to prove that they did this illegally is very very high. Your best protection against it is to minimize being in any situation where the conditions will easily exist for it to happen.
  - mindslight 9mo ago
    I am well aware of the distinction between what is and what ought to be. You seem to be perfectly content with what is such that it has replaced your ability to even ponder what ought to be. We are all quite fortunate that the founding fathers of our country did not think like you.
    - kcplate 9mo ago
      > We are all quite fortunate that the founding fathers of our country did not think like you. Ironic that you think that when all through this thread I have suggested to people that were upset with how this works that the best way for them to change all of it is to use exactly the process our founding fathers put in place for us to do so. Just to get push back from many that mob rule was a better method.
      - mindslight 9mo ago
        You completely missed my point, which perfectly demonstrated my point. Thank you. (as I'm eternally hopeful, I will give you a breadcrumb that you might start following. ask yourself: what do you think the first steps of using those processes might look like?)
computerthings 9mo ago
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by kcplate 9mo ago

mindslight 9mo ago

Wow. I wrote a pretty substantive comment so you could see we have some common ground and I'm not just a "fAr lEfT wAcKo", but apparently that's "not productive". If you want to be done, sure, be done. I think we could have converged much quicker if you hadn't been leading with these kind of abstract-oblique points that demand adding nuance, but then avoiding the nuance. And also I've got to say, this last comment is a whole bunch of retrenching at "nobody can know" FUD. But at any rate, let us make no mistake: this incident is most certainly about our freedom of speech, which includes the freedom to criticize government agents in ways they may not personally appreciate. I did finally just watch a video of the run-up of where they surround the car. She was stopped across the street like an asshole, blaring her horn, and seemingly mocking/heckling the agents. Vehicles were going by her just fine (including some ICE vehicles), just as you'd expect in regular city traffic. But being an asshole is not illegal, and what she was doing looks to be exactly first-amendment protected activity - heckling ICE agents because she disagreed with what they were doing. Even if there is something there that ICE can legally stretch into a federal crime, it certainly doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a high stakes boxed-in gun-drawn escalation that induces a fight or flight response. And given that the killer had previously fucked around and found out about moving vehicles six months prior, his positioning and subsequent reaction would seem to be highly deliberate and likely even premeditated. Renee most certainly could have done many things differently, and I wish she had. But government agents also have a duty to execute their roles in good faith to minimize harm regardless of whom they're dealing with and what they've done. What these agents did here was the complete and utter opposite, making them responsible for her death.

kcplate 9mo ago
I realize this is difficult for people on this thread to accept, but unless you are someone selected for a jury evaluating this case your opinion, my opinion, the half dozen or more others opinions commenting about this situation on this thread, every pundit or talking head, every news agency, federal government officials, politicians, and even Trump’s opinion (unless he decides to preemptively pardon before any charges are brought, which is now a thing thanks to Biden) just doesn’t matter. Frankly at this point I am just tired of rehashing the same things over and over again. I will leave you with this as my final summary of my thought (which I have more than once articulated on this thread): The government has the ability to take your life from you. The legal bar to prove that they did this illegally is very very high. Your best protection against it is to minimize being in any situation where the conditions will easily exist for it to happen.
- mindslight 9mo ago
  I am well aware of the distinction between what is and what ought to be. You seem to be perfectly content with what is such that it has replaced your ability to even ponder what ought to be. We are all quite fortunate that the founding fathers of our country did not think like you.
  - kcplate 9mo ago
    > We are all quite fortunate that the founding fathers of our country did not think like you. Ironic that you think that when all through this thread I have suggested to people that were upset with how this works that the best way for them to change all of it is to use exactly the process our founding fathers put in place for us to do so. Just to get push back from many that mob rule was a better method.
    - mindslight 9mo ago
      You completely missed my point, which perfectly demonstrated my point. Thank you. (as I'm eternally hopeful, I will give you a breadcrumb that you might start following. ask yourself: what do you think the first steps of using those processes might look like?)

computerthings 9mo ago

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