4 ms·

I read the book SAT Wars and came away with a horrifying takeaway: admissions programs in US universities are creative enterprises for the person involved. One

I read the book SAT Wars and came away with a horrifying takeaway: admissions programs in US universities are creative enterprises for the person involved. One of them talks about “crafting a class”. Getting into many of these places is a question of playing into your admissions officer’s biases. Knowing that they’re mostly liberal voters, often female, and nowadays more likely to be childless it’s presumably important to match that person’s energy. Someone who would otherwise be writing romance novels is now picking students. Hence the infamous essay of the accepted student that went “Black Lives Matter” x100 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-39492187 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-39492187

flufluflufluffy 10mo ago
It’s always been this way; previously we just had to play to the old white men’s biases.
- cyberax 10mo ago
  Some other countries just use test scores and exam results.
  - anon291 10mo ago
    I mean contrary to the comment above this is how American universities used to be. They had standing exams... Show up on admission day, take a test, highest scores get admission. Easy
  - smelendez 10mo ago
    That’s not unbiased though. You still have the question of what’s tested and how it’s graded.
    - cyberax 10mo ago
      Come on. For math/physics/chemistry/CS the exams are easy. Just written questions and answers. Grading is also simple, just check if the answer is correct. For high-school-level questions, all the answers can be trivially checked. We're not talking about PhD-level problems. It's a bit more complicated for humanities, grading essays is more subjective. But we also have solutions for that: have 2-3 people independently grade each essay, and have a special group review all the cases where the graders disagree.
    - Ekaros 10mo ago
      Blind review to same rubric works reasonably well. Same test with same expected learning goals should remove nearly all issues.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- smelendez 10mo ago
  Yeah, there’s really no way around it when you have more qualified students than slots, unless you just mark each applicant as qualified or not and run a lottery. But they do have to “craft a class” to some extent. An obvious example is athletic recruiting, but some schools are consciously thinking about populating other extracurriculars, like marching bands or orchestras. And you also don’t want a class that’s all computer science majors or zero philosophy majors. I imagine they consider other factors as well. The admissions staff may be liberal, but I’m guessing at most schools they deliberately admit some outspoken conservatives.
  - School-Cotton 10mo ago
    No they don’t “have” to do any of this as evidenced by the fact that the US is the only country where it happens. In most countries it would (rightly) be considered strange to care how good someone is at sports or marching band when evaluating their ability to study academic subjects (the actual purpose of a university).
    - its_ethan 10mo ago
      That feels like a fairly narrow view of what the purpose of a university is. Look at the charter of any university and they do not just say: "create students who excel in their academic subject of choice". The vast, vast majority of higher education mission statements/charters include goals like: "helping students develop their identity", "pursuing meaning", "strengthening community", "sharing perspectives", "helping others", etc. etc. etc. Things like "can this person work on as a team (did they play sports?)" or "have they been a part of a community (like marching band?)" are hugely important for building a community at the university that can successfully achieve those mission statements.
      - School-Cotton 10mo ago
        > Look at the charter of any university Any university in the world? Or any university in the very idiosyncratic US system? Again, nobody else does stuff like this, and their universities seem to be working fine.
- School-Cotton 10mo ago
  Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere. Lots of places just sort by grades or test scores. Part of the reason for the weird US system is the low ceiling: school is relatively easy compared to developed countries, so there are way too many people with identical scores at the top.
- renewiltord 10mo ago
  I can’t say I’m the kind of guy who faces bootlicking with a gastronomic interest. The taste of the boot doesn’t change what’s being done.
RobRivera 10mo ago
From School Ties' Brendan Frasiers character "Youre going to use me for football, Im going to use you to get into Harvard" Competitive admission hasn't really changed by nature

flufluflufluffy 10mo ago

It’s always been this way; previously we just had to play to the old white men’s biases.

cyberax 10mo ago
Some other countries just use test scores and exam results.
- anon291 10mo ago
  I mean contrary to the comment above this is how American universities used to be. They had standing exams... Show up on admission day, take a test, highest scores get admission. Easy
- smelendez 10mo ago
  That’s not unbiased though. You still have the question of what’s tested and how it’s graded.
  - cyberax 10mo ago
    Come on. For math/physics/chemistry/CS the exams are easy. Just written questions and answers. Grading is also simple, just check if the answer is correct. For high-school-level questions, all the answers can be trivially checked. We're not talking about PhD-level problems. It's a bit more complicated for humanities, grading essays is more subjective. But we also have solutions for that: have 2-3 people independently grade each essay, and have a special group review all the cases where the graders disagree.
  - Ekaros 10mo ago
    Blind review to same rubric works reasonably well. Same test with same expected learning goals should remove nearly all issues.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
smelendez 10mo ago
Yeah, there’s really no way around it when you have more qualified students than slots, unless you just mark each applicant as qualified or not and run a lottery. But they do have to “craft a class” to some extent. An obvious example is athletic recruiting, but some schools are consciously thinking about populating other extracurriculars, like marching bands or orchestras. And you also don’t want a class that’s all computer science majors or zero philosophy majors. I imagine they consider other factors as well. The admissions staff may be liberal, but I’m guessing at most schools they deliberately admit some outspoken conservatives.
- School-Cotton 10mo ago
  No they don’t “have” to do any of this as evidenced by the fact that the US is the only country where it happens. In most countries it would (rightly) be considered strange to care how good someone is at sports or marching band when evaluating their ability to study academic subjects (the actual purpose of a university).
  - its_ethan 10mo ago
    That feels like a fairly narrow view of what the purpose of a university is. Look at the charter of any university and they do not just say: "create students who excel in their academic subject of choice". The vast, vast majority of higher education mission statements/charters include goals like: "helping students develop their identity", "pursuing meaning", "strengthening community", "sharing perspectives", "helping others", etc. etc. etc. Things like "can this person work on as a team (did they play sports?)" or "have they been a part of a community (like marching band?)" are hugely important for building a community at the university that can successfully achieve those mission statements.
    - School-Cotton 10mo ago
      > Look at the charter of any university Any university in the world? Or any university in the very idiosyncratic US system? Again, nobody else does stuff like this, and their universities seem to be working fine.
School-Cotton 10mo ago
Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere. Lots of places just sort by grades or test scores. Part of the reason for the weird US system is the low ceiling: school is relatively easy compared to developed countries, so there are way too many people with identical scores at the top.
renewiltord 10mo ago
I can’t say I’m the kind of guy who faces bootlicking with a gastronomic interest. The taste of the boot doesn’t change what’s being done.

RobRivera 10mo ago

From School Ties' Brendan Frasiers character "Youre going to use me for football, Im going to use you to get into Harvard" Competitive admission hasn't really changed by nature