8 ms·
Drones that recharge directly on transmission lines
- Sniffnoy 9mo agoHuh, is that legal? I mean I guess it is when the power company is the customer, as they talk about, but otherwise?
- lkbm 9mo agoI'd assume otherwise you have to have a way for the drones to meter their usage and pay the power company. It will likely make power theft easier, but it seems entirely viable to have an account with the power company where you report "I drew X joules from line Y" and for them to bill appropriately.
- ceejayoz 9mo agoThat seems entirely unviable to me. Have you met… people? “Trust me, bro!” is something I wish my power company would do, but they installed a meter instead.
- yorwba 9mo agoWhat's unviable about having the power company vet the thing that reports "I drew X joules from line Y" like they would vet any other meter?
- lesam 9mo agoDepends. When millions are on the line between companies, people are surprisingly willing to take a hand-created excel file as 'proof'. For example: https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/tricolors-excel-guy-failed-to-fix-all-numbers-in-alleged-fraud https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/tricolors-excel-g...
- notahacker 9mo agoFeels like this is likely to be targeting government and major corporate clients, in which case they're probably in a strong place to negotiate agreements based on charge reported by the drone's on board software. Not to mention the utility companies themselves, who are mentioned as the initial market.
- bri3d 9mo agoUnmetered electric service based on "trust me bro" is actually the default (at least in the US) for a huge variety of devices, like streetlights, cell towers mounted to electric poles, public irrigation systems, etc etc. Almost every US utility has a "UM" process to self-assess an unmetered load's consumption and be billed. So, yes, it's not only viable but widespread.
- rightbyte 9mo ago> Unmetered electric service based on "trust me bro" is actually the default (at least in the US) for a huge variety of devices I wouldn't talk too loud about this or you will ruin it for all of us. If I discover the street lights on my street mine botcoins I will blame you.
- Analemma_ 9mo agoB2B transactions like this are handled fine with contracts and lawyers all the time, I doubt it would be an issue. In the worst case, the utility could own the recharging module on the drone, just like they own your power meter.
- lkbm 9mo agoI mean, if I have to pay them by how much power I draw, I'm pretty glad they have a way to measure that, because I don't. What's there alternative in this case? If I can land a drone on the power line and suck up some power, they can either charge me when I tell them I did it, or they can not charge me.
- echelon 9mo agoThey'll use this narrative to fundraise and build. Then they'll build their own distributed charging infra that becomes a moat.
- adrianmonk 9mo agoThe simplest might be for the drone company to act as an intermediary. They'd bill drone users for charging and have contracts with utilities. The drone company could do some authentication / DRM / etc. so that you'd basically have to jailbreak your drone to charge without paying. Yes, I'm sure the markup would be large as a percentage, but for most customers the convenience would be worth it. Most of the customers are probably commercial and don't want to risk getting banned or sued.
- _qua 9mo agoPresumably they'd be doing inspections for the power company, who probably don't care if some minuscule amounts of power are consumed directly during operations.
- znnajdla 9mo agoThere is a not so subtle hint in the description that they were mainly inspired by military applications (Air Force, DARPA). Legality doesn’t matter when you’re in enemy territory.
- galkk 9mo agoThe drones heavier than 250g already must transmit remote id
- quickthrowman 9mo agoYou can install electric fencing beneath high voltage transmission lines and it will be energized for ‘free’.
- KaiserPro 9mo agoLiability is probably the biggest issue, rather than using the energy. If it causes damage because it fails to connect properly, or if it has a trailing wire to pick up other phases (not actually connect to it but to pick up induction)
- parpfish 9mo agoFuel for the “birds arent real” pseudo conspiracy
- Redster 9mo agoLol, yes. I came here to say, "This technology has been around for years in birds. /s"
- mikrl 9mo agoIf this works via induction could you even eliminate the need for the drones to land? Assuming flight conditions are good, there would be a region around the wire (line of charge) with an electric/magnetic field that the drones could use, any shielding notwithstanding.
- Ccecil 9mo agoThat was my thought as well...I suppose there may be something I am not thinking of. Perhaps they get more total energy if they "perch" on the tower.
- bentcorner 9mo agoMy gut says there's something like an inverse-square law that governs how far away they can effectively charge.
- kube-system 9mo agoIt’s exactly the inverse square law. You get a million times more power if you can put a coil 1mm away from the wire than if you hover 1 meter away.
- japaget 9mo agoIt's actually an inverse first power law, assuming that the distance of the drone from the wire is much less than the length of the wire. The inverse square law applies only to a point source of electrical energy, to a sphere, or to an object whose largest dimension is much less than the distance to the drone.
- TomatoCo 9mo agoIt'll definitely charge faster, if only because it's drawing less power to stay up and getting closer. The only question is, is it like 10% or 100% faster?
- stavros 9mo ago
- ck2 9mo agoI remember a demo where fluorescent tubes will glow, sometimes brightly, near high-power transmission lines
- roywiggins 9mo agoGoes back a long way: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_Tesla_holding_bulb.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_Tesla_holding... > The bulb is a prototype "fluorescent" light he invented consisting of a partially evacuated glass bulb with a single metal electrode. Nearby, probably behind the curtain, there is one of his Tesla coil high voltage oscillators which produces a radio frequency electric field. The electric field ionizes the gas in the bulb, causing it to glow similar to a neon light. This photo is a 2 second time exposure taken by the light of the bulb
- Animats 9mo agoYes. That should be done along hiking and biking trails under power lines. There's one in Silicon Valley along the bay shore line. The fluorescent tubes don't wear out; the filaments at the end are not in use. Just slip them inside polycarbonate tubes.
- KaiserPro 9mo agohttps://collidecolludecollaborate.wordpress.com/2016/01/12/field-by-richard-box/ https://collidecolludecollaborate.wordpress.com/2016/01/12/f... https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00l1slw https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00l1slw < although its not available at the moment
- metalman 9mo agowhat could go wrong?
- darth_avocado 9mo agoAs long as they can cover the liability when inevitably one of this sets off a wildfire in California that costs Billions. (I think it’s a cool idea if done right, they are after all trying to fix the problem of wildfires anyway which makes me hopeful)
- themafia 9mo ago> Removing battery swaps is the last step to deploy UAVs autonomously at scale. I can't say, as a citizen, that I'm particularly excited about this. > Autonomous drones can deliver over 20x the inspection coverage for the same cost. And we have 20x the manpower to review this footage? I wonder if you're just generating a bunch of data that cannot be practically used. "More coverage" isn't always the best answer. "Better informed coverage" is probably the problem to solve here. Aside from that what is the maintenance interval on those drones? How does that incorporate into this system? I think this is solving the problem in the wrong direction.
- szundi 9mo ago[dead]
- rsyring 9mo ago> And we have 20x the manpower to review this footage? I was involved with a startup that did inspections of power generation windmills. The computer vision anomaly detection was really good and that was about five years ago. The goal was to have the automated visual inspections route images with suspected anomalies to humans for review and it was working well the last time I heard. Compared to having a human who needs to rappel down to the blades for a manual inspection, this is a huge productivity and safety boost.
- renewiltord 9mo ago[dead]
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 9mo agoGosh I hope my house isn't inspection coverage
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- dgacmu 9mo ago
- libertyit 9mo agoGreat name
- anfractuosity 9mo agoRemember seeing this a little while ago too - https://www.fastcompany.com/91089861/this-genius-vampire-drone-is-designed-to-fly-forever https://www.fastcompany.com/91089861/this-genius-vampire-dro... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uekD6VTIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uekD6VTIQ has a video of their drone on a power line.
- HelloUsername 9mo agoDiscussed april/may 2024 "'Vampire drone' can leech electricity from power lines to live forever" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40317484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40317484 "Autonomous Overhead Powerline Recharging for Uninterrupted Drone Operations" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39945733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39945733
- nhma 9mo agoThe prototype in the linked video was first tested back in 2023, and since then a few startups have set their sights on the technology (e.g. Nomadic Drones and Voltair). When working on the linked prototype we ran into some fundamental issues. Firstly, the recharging will only work with AC lines, and there's currently a lot of hype around UHVDC lines which are not compatible. Secondly, the AC lines must carry substantial current (ideally thousands of amps) for the recharging to not take forever. You can of course carry a much larger transformer on the drone to compensate, but this will in turn severely limit your flight time (ours was 1kg on a drone of 4.5kg and we could charge with 50W from 300A line current). You also have to account for significant daily fluctuations in the line current. It'll be interesting to see how the tech evolves, and I'll definitely be following these startups closely.
- artemonster 9mo agoCan someone please tell how? Touching a power cable is not a closed circuit
- hn_throwaway_99 9mo agoInduction
- th0ma5 9mo ago[dead]
- alright2565 9mo agoIt can be a closed circuit when using AC instead of DC. Remember that the primary and secondary side of transformers never touch.
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 9mo agoThis will open a giant can of worms. Hobbyists, bad actors and military will be taking advantage.
- pix128 9mo agoMaybe it'll lead the US burying their power lines
- throwaway5370x 9mo agoThe drones will just start digging then
- NonHyloMorph 9mo agoOh well, enter the matrix
- mothballed 9mo agoThe cost to do that is unimaginably high.
- AngryData 9mo agoSo was rural electrification to start with, but it still more than paid for itself. It has also never been easier to bury lines with horizontal boring machines.
- chrneu 9mo agolol never gonna happen. I live in the PNW of the US where many fires have been started by transformers exploding or whatnot. Basically every community that has a fire as a result of transmission lines rebuilds them above ground/on poles. Just last month I was going through Detroit, Oregon and their 2-3 year old power lines were all down because of the wind storm. Detroit had a transformer explode a few years ago and it took out much of the community. They immediately rebuilt above ground. They'll rebuild them on poles again.
- BanAntiVaxxers 9mo agoAlso known as “stealing”
- wolfi1 9mo agoin my country this is considered theft and it is punishable by law considered you don't have a contract with the provider
- exegete 9mo agoThat might be why the first customers are utilities themselves.
- wolfi1 9mo agoI hope so, and that there are no other people using them, exploiting this ability
- donpark 9mo agoIt’s just a technology that can be used for both civilian and military applications, not only by private entities.
- wolfi1 9mo agoif you don't have a contract with the utility you almost certainly violate the law, at least in Europe, but then again I don't know what the US regulation is
- bell-cot 9mo ago> Power utilities are the perfect first customer. Sounds like having contracts with the power companies is their #1 goal.
- wolfi1 9mo agoif so, all is fine. but if there are other entities using it they need a contract with the utility
- eh_why_not 9mo ago> Removing battery swaps is the last step to deploy UAVs autonomously at scale. So ubiquitous surveillance, literally overhead, without any need to have a nearby/local charging/physical-management station/crew? > After power companies, we will service rail, road, telecom, real estate and other inspection markets. Oh? > After building drones for the Air Force and DARPA, ... Oh
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- mandeepj 9mo agoGreat idea! Why i never thought of that? Could robo taxis steal the idea and get recharged w/o going back to base station? They can eject a rod similar to an E-train or how a military plane get refilled.
- thesz 9mo agoThis is perfect for (pretty much) stealthy energy stealing.
- bmitch3020 9mo agoI'm surprised this isn't already happening in Ukraine. They could fly small surveillance drones deep in enemy territory, perch on a power line, and send back lots of data. Not just video, but also sound and triangulating signals. This would also be useful in fog by monitoring major roads where high altitude drones and satellites would be obstructed.
- jacquesm 9mo agoThe radio links and navigation are the hard parts.
- DrewADesign 9mo agoI'm not like a drone-i-ologist or nothin, but from what I gather, both sides have gotten really good at detecting and jamming drone communication in the Ukraine/Russia conflict, which would probably make that a tough use case. I've read that the newer attack drones are controlled by a reaaallly long, reaaalllyy thin fiber optic line!
- vhcr 9mo agoThe idea would be to use autonomous drones, so they wouldn't need to communicate, the problem would be that the GPS signal is jammed.
- BobaFloutist 9mo agoIf they're not communicating, how are they sending back lots of data?
- PieTime 9mo agoI presume these are surveillance drones and are programmed to loop back to origin
- DrewADesign 9mo ago
- gingersnap 9mo agoThis must be illegal in so many ways
- choosenick 9mo agoAwesome name for the company 10/10
- kulahan 9mo agoMaybe this is silly to complain about, but how would power companies charge these drone companies for electricity consumption? Seems… just so easy to steal?
- mothballed 9mo agoThe proposed initial use case is use as inspection drones for the power company themselves.
- sowbug 9mo agoWhen I was a kid, we had a neighbor who had somehow wrapped some wire around the power lines enough times to siphon off an interesting amount of power. I never saw the wire myself, so it might not have actually happened. But people certainly talked about doing it way back when.
- ikidd 9mo agoWe had a neighbor that put loops of wire under a 600kV line and got enough power to run a water pump for cows. The square law makes that kind of thing pretty low-return.
- toss1 9mo agoHere's some calculations on the return [0] (usual caveats of stuff found on the internet). Quite low returns indeed! [0] https://user.physics.unc.edu/~deardorf/phys25/rwp/exam1rwpsolution.html https://user.physics.unc.edu/~deardorf/phys25/rwp/exam1rwpso...
- ikidd 9mo agoYah, he was just running a 12V bilge pump on a battery, and used a charge controller to keep the battery up so just needed a voltage slightly above the battery voltage. I doubt it used a kWh per day as it cycled. He might still be using it, haven't talked to him in a few years.
- 9mo ago
- littlestymaar 9mo agoCan anyone more knowledgeable explain how this works? Is it harvesting energy from the magnetic field (via induction), or does it extracts its energy from the electric field instead? And does the drone just happen to land on the power line for saving energy while doing so, or is the contact necessary somehow?
- KaiserPro 9mo agoI would guess that its just a coil thats near the cable. however I can't imagine its actually that much power, as the field isn't that strong. _but_ at 33kv, you start to get corona discharge, which gives you a potential difference, so that might be the mechanism they get power. (thats a wild guess. ) Edit I did some more digging, induction appears to be magnetic induction, long cables do produce a magnetic field, but not that much (unless you put it in a coil) Capacitive coupling is much more effective at high voltage.
- kuon 9mo agoBalisor[1] usually uses capacitive coupling, but it require a long parallel cable. Some lamps do use induction, like this one[2]. I guess it uses induction looking at the drone, it also works with an open coil. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balisor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balisor [2]: https://www.delta-box.com/en/marking/bht-marking-light-for-high-voltage-line/ https://www.delta-box.com/en/marking/bht-marking-light-for-h...
- silexia 9mo agoThis is one of those brilliant ideas that seems like it should have been obvious in retrospect. Questions: Do the drones need transformers? Won't those be heavy? Don't the drones need a way to circulate the electricity? IE have a path to ground?
- avodonosov 9mo agoI've been wondering for several years why no-one does this yet.
- bawolff 9mo agoLol. Isn't this exactly the premise of the "birds aren't real" conspiracy theory? https://youtu.be/3VEkzweBJPM?si=_5hCR8AE1Ii3sI-l https://youtu.be/3VEkzweBJPM?si=_5hCR8AE1Ii3sI-l
- DANmode 9mo agoHopefully all of the perfect engineering candidates who previously worked in this specific space (autonomous line inspection at an industrial scale) live in San Francisco…………… Seems odd that this would be all in-person roles. Not the most apparent path to relevant talent.
- password4321 9mo agoAnyone tried solar powered drones with charge weeks hiding on roofs between travel hops?
- cramcgrab 9mo agoNuclear drones!
- aussieguy1234 9mo agoWell, at the very least, we now have a pre-built charging network for drones. Something that would have taken decades to build manually
- jeffbee 9mo agoThis seems like a solution looking for a problem. If the power companies were satisfied about the safety issues of this idea, which are obviously many and severe, then they would also be satisfied with simply mounting a charging platform for the drone atop the tower or pole where the HV line runs, which cuts out a lot of the uncertainty regarding the drone's autonomous guidance. Also, the whole idea triggers my reflexive skepticism about any technology that seeks to remove the last human from the system. Usually there are exponentially increasing costs to removing the next human, and at some point it's not worth it. People want (wanted) to make sealed, autonomous data centers maintained by robots and it just isn't worth it. Even in manufacturing where robotic automation is ubiquitous and advanced there are still tons of humans.
- Hobadee 9mo ago> Voltair builds drones that ‘perch’ like birds to recharge on power lines. You mean like birds have been doing for decades?! OPEN YOUR EYES, SHEEPLE! BIRDS AREN'T REAL! /s (I really shouldnt need a /s, but people these days believe anything...)
- poopiokaka 9mo ago[dead]
- timthorn 9mo agoReminds me of Field, an art installation of planted fluorescent tubes under an HV electricity distribution line back in 2004: https://www.gorge.org/images/field/ https://www.gorge.org/images/field/
- MikeNotThePope 9mo agoComing soon, power mooching drones that mine Bitcoin!