6 ms·

> The sane environmental stuff you mentioned has morphed into a requirement for deeply integrated electronic oversight Decent catalytic converters require an a

> The sane environmental stuff you mentioned has morphed into a requirement for deeply integrated electronic oversight Decent catalytic converters require an array of sensors, ECU, and ability to fine control the engine inputs to work - without them most large cities would become smog ridden hells.

ramesh31 10mo ago
This is why late 90s cars are objectively the greatest ever built. You had ECUs, cats, ABS, disc brakes, airbags, power steering, and conventional automatic transmissions. Everything that makes a modern car safe and reliable, but none of the high tech digital BS that has infused things nowadays.
- dgacmu 10mo ago
  ESC (electronic stability control) didn't become common until about 2010 to 2015. It makes a really big difference for safety -- EU estimates are that it's saved more than 15,000 lives. Let's backport that one too. :)
  - Glawen 10mo ago
    It was available already on late 90s vehicles. That was the fix to solve Mercedes Class A failing Elk test: put ESP on all trims
  - wrigby 10mo ago
    My 2004 RX-8 had decently solid ESC, but it was a “high-end” vehicle at the time. It’s definitely something we want to keep in our idealized vehicle (but let’s also keep the “disable ESC so I can have fun” button)
    - 20after4 10mo ago
      I was going to make this exact comment. The RX-8 had excellent stability control. Saved my ass at least once going too fast around a 90 degree corner. It also behaved really well on icy roads. It was pretty incredible for a rear wheel drive sports car, especially impressive at the time compared to every other car on the road back then.
  - dizhn 10mo ago
    I bought my first real wheel drive car in 2014. Still have it. It's not a race car. About 170hp. It struggles at the smallest curves. Good thing it has traction control and esp. Except all the front wheel cars I had before, one even slightly more powerful and smaller, never needed any of that. Never ever buying a rwd again. (Enthusiast forums of the brand tell me I don't know how to drive RWD. Skill issue. :D)
    - jonasdegendt 10mo ago
      You should look into different tires perhaps.
      - dizhn 10mo ago
        I will grant that there might be a match issue but I don't think Michelin Pilot Sports are bad tires.
    - MobiusHorizons 10mo ago
      Rwd is definitely sketchier in certain circumstances, especially going uphill in low traction. Also pretty bad in the snow generally. but I’ve only had issues going around corners when it was very wet and I was driving faster that the speed limit. If you are running into traction issues driving normally (ie not flooring it) I would recommend having your tires and alignment checked, even with RWD that should not be happening in my experience.
- formerly_proven 10mo ago
  In reality many 90s cars are phenomenal rust buckets due to issues in the adoption of water-based paints, cars which actually still have tangible amounts of steel in their panels are basically golden samples.
ninalanyon 10mo ago
The solution to city air pollution is a different vehicle with a different drive train: an EV. The C15 is a workhorse for farmers and craftsmen not for shopping trips and driving the family to visit granny on the other side of town.
- writebetterc 10mo ago
  > The solution to city air pollution is a different vehicle with a different drive train: an EV. Priority list should basically be: 0. Bicycles 1. Metro 2. Buses 3. EVs (not counting emergency and service vehicles)
  - fwipsy 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - oakesm9 10mo ago
      We do have bicycle ambulance which carry a defibrillator [0] The 40 paramedics attend over 17,000 calls a year and the average response time is 6 minutes. [0] https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/calling-us/who-will-treat-you/single-responder/cycle-responder/ https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/calling-us/who-will-treat...
    - writebetterc 10mo ago
      > (not counting emergency and service vehicles) Just gotta read the last line too :P
      - scott_w 10mo ago
        Cut him some slack, he might have been having a heart attack at the time and in need of one of those ambulances!
      - Supernaut 10mo ago
        What do you mean, at a practical level, when you set out your "priority list" above? Are you referring to the use of congestion charges to discourage private motor vehicle use?
maxerickson 10mo ago
For gasoline engines, electronic fuel injection is far better than a carburetor, it isn't just the emissions systems. Sure, it's harder to work on. The trade off there is that you don't have to work on it.
- hofen 10mo ago
  [flagged]
pantalaimon 10mo ago
If you have an electric vehicle you need none of that
- everdrive 10mo ago
  And if people would make one that wasn't an iPad on wheels I'd be in line to buy.
  - wrigby 10mo ago
    This is my exact same sentiment. I’m cautiously excited about the upcoming Slate Pickup[1] - I can see it being my go-to if I leave NYC, but it still won’t hit like the XJ Cherokee I drove before I gave up cars for the city. 1: https://www.slate.auto/ https://www.slate.auto/
    - peatmoss 10mo ago
      I worry about the Slate truck being DOA with expiration of incentives for EVs. Someone please tell me I'm wrong, because if they do deliver as promised, I'll be excited to buy one. For me, I'm hoping it fills the mid-90s Isuzu Pup sized hole in my heart.
    - soared 10mo ago
      I like the idea of a slate but the truck bed just makes no sense at that size. I don’t understand why it’s not defaulted to another row of seats or hatchback, with the option to convert to truck. 5 ft bed without extension is kind of pointless as a bed, but huge as a trunk.
      - everdrive 10mo ago
        That's effectively what it is, but reverse. You buy it as a truck, and can buy seats & cap and turn it into an SUV. I see it as the closest thing you can get to a kei truck in the US without importing. Relatively cheap, good payload capacity, (better than a lot of trucks out there) effectively unable to tow, 5-foot bed, which is the same or larger than most mid-size trucks, and a tiny form factor. It's certainly a niche vehicle, but it looks exciting if it can fill you niche.
Nextgrid 10mo ago
There's no reason technology has to be user-hostile. You can still have an ECU and screens and everything. When it breaks the screen can be used to tell you exactly which sensor input is out of range. There's no reason parts need to be serialized and learning a new part can only be done once. You can build a modern vehicle that's still repairable.
- Braxton1980 10mo ago
  Modules need to be programmed for your vehicle specs and country because there are different laws and functions. For example rear taillights are different in Europe vs the US. Another is that higher trims of my car have a rear climate zone which has a different fan and actuators for air flow that the module needs to know exist.
  - bri3d 10mo ago
    Sure, but the reasons programming requires proprietary software accessible only to the dealer via some kind of online access are depressing: laziness, greed, and crime. Making software that's usable by independent shops and consumers costs money, eliminates business lock-in to dealers, and boosts the gray/black market for broken or stolen parts, so the only reason manufacturers do it at all is when they are required to by regulation.
    - tmerc 10mo ago
      Calling bs. It takes more effort to implement proprietary protocols and codes in addition to the globally mandated obd2 protocol. You can extend obd2 with additional codes that could be read by a simple device. It costs money to run servers that check your license to read those proprietary codes. It's not laziness. The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this. Catalytic converter are stolen and resold all the time and swapping one doesn't require anything more complex than a socket set and a new gasket (assuming the thief didn't use a cutting tool, but then you just weld). Cats also get sold for scrap, so not sure what the software lock is gonna do for that. Hellcat engines get swapped all the time. ECUs get flashed by the black market regardless of the software locks. But what we see this proprietary software get used for is blocking the ability to swap brake pads and block heated seats. So it's not crime, but I'll agree on greed.
ambicapter 10mo ago
What do the sensors do? There's not much you can change in the catalytic converter so I assume it's just reading temperature? So I assume it's changing the fuel/air combustion ratio according to the cat's temperature?
- immibis 10mo ago
  Not a motorhead but IIRC a combustion with too little oxygen produces soot (pollution) and one with too much oxygen produces NOx pollution, with a sweet spot in the middle. The exhaust oxygen sensor allows the ECU to adjust the air/fuel mix to hit the minimum pollution spot, instead of estimating it. There might also be a catalyst temperature sensor or something. It's not a "whole bunch" of sensors, it's a few sensors and it's not some inscrutable magic, it's somethijg someone could replicate in open-source if they had equipment and time. We really need to get away from the mindset that proprietary stuff contains inscrutable magic. It's often worse quality than the open thing. However, it does have the right connections to be allowed to be put in a car that drives on the road.
Animats 10mo ago
Engine control alone can be self-contained. The Ford EEC IV of the 1980s had its program permanently etched into the Intel 8061 CPU, and was designed to last 30 years. It did. I finally sold off my 40 year old Ford Bronco, which was still running on the original engine and CPU.

ramesh31 10mo ago

This is why late 90s cars are objectively the greatest ever built. You had ECUs, cats, ABS, disc brakes, airbags, power steering, and conventional automatic transmissions. Everything that makes a modern car safe and reliable, but none of the high tech digital BS that has infused things nowadays.

dgacmu 10mo ago
ESC (electronic stability control) didn't become common until about 2010 to 2015. It makes a really big difference for safety -- EU estimates are that it's saved more than 15,000 lives. Let's backport that one too. :)
- Glawen 10mo ago
  It was available already on late 90s vehicles. That was the fix to solve Mercedes Class A failing Elk test: put ESP on all trims
- wrigby 10mo ago
  My 2004 RX-8 had decently solid ESC, but it was a “high-end” vehicle at the time. It’s definitely something we want to keep in our idealized vehicle (but let’s also keep the “disable ESC so I can have fun” button)
  - 20after4 10mo ago
    I was going to make this exact comment. The RX-8 had excellent stability control. Saved my ass at least once going too fast around a 90 degree corner. It also behaved really well on icy roads. It was pretty incredible for a rear wheel drive sports car, especially impressive at the time compared to every other car on the road back then.
- dizhn 10mo ago
  I bought my first real wheel drive car in 2014. Still have it. It's not a race car. About 170hp. It struggles at the smallest curves. Good thing it has traction control and esp. Except all the front wheel cars I had before, one even slightly more powerful and smaller, never needed any of that. Never ever buying a rwd again. (Enthusiast forums of the brand tell me I don't know how to drive RWD. Skill issue. :D)
  - jonasdegendt 10mo ago
    You should look into different tires perhaps.
    - dizhn 10mo ago
      I will grant that there might be a match issue but I don't think Michelin Pilot Sports are bad tires.
  - MobiusHorizons 10mo ago
    Rwd is definitely sketchier in certain circumstances, especially going uphill in low traction. Also pretty bad in the snow generally. but I’ve only had issues going around corners when it was very wet and I was driving faster that the speed limit. If you are running into traction issues driving normally (ie not flooring it) I would recommend having your tires and alignment checked, even with RWD that should not be happening in my experience.
formerly_proven 10mo ago
In reality many 90s cars are phenomenal rust buckets due to issues in the adoption of water-based paints, cars which actually still have tangible amounts of steel in their panels are basically golden samples.

ninalanyon 10mo ago

The solution to city air pollution is a different vehicle with a different drive train: an EV. The C15 is a workhorse for farmers and craftsmen not for shopping trips and driving the family to visit granny on the other side of town.

writebetterc 10mo ago
> The solution to city air pollution is a different vehicle with a different drive train: an EV. Priority list should basically be: 0. Bicycles 1. Metro 2. Buses 3. EVs (not counting emergency and service vehicles)
- fwipsy 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - oakesm9 10mo ago
    We do have bicycle ambulance which carry a defibrillator [0] The 40 paramedics attend over 17,000 calls a year and the average response time is 6 minutes. [0] https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/calling-us/who-will-treat-you/single-responder/cycle-responder/ https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/calling-us/who-will-treat...
  - writebetterc 10mo ago
    > (not counting emergency and service vehicles) Just gotta read the last line too :P
    - scott_w 10mo ago
      Cut him some slack, he might have been having a heart attack at the time and in need of one of those ambulances!
    - Supernaut 10mo ago
      What do you mean, at a practical level, when you set out your "priority list" above? Are you referring to the use of congestion charges to discourage private motor vehicle use?

maxerickson 10mo ago

For gasoline engines, electronic fuel injection is far better than a carburetor, it isn't just the emissions systems. Sure, it's harder to work on. The trade off there is that you don't have to work on it.

hofen 10mo ago
[flagged]

pantalaimon 10mo ago

If you have an electric vehicle you need none of that

everdrive 10mo ago
And if people would make one that wasn't an iPad on wheels I'd be in line to buy.
- wrigby 10mo ago
  This is my exact same sentiment. I’m cautiously excited about the upcoming Slate Pickup[1] - I can see it being my go-to if I leave NYC, but it still won’t hit like the XJ Cherokee I drove before I gave up cars for the city. 1: https://www.slate.auto/ https://www.slate.auto/
  - peatmoss 10mo ago
    I worry about the Slate truck being DOA with expiration of incentives for EVs. Someone please tell me I'm wrong, because if they do deliver as promised, I'll be excited to buy one. For me, I'm hoping it fills the mid-90s Isuzu Pup sized hole in my heart.
  - soared 10mo ago
    I like the idea of a slate but the truck bed just makes no sense at that size. I don’t understand why it’s not defaulted to another row of seats or hatchback, with the option to convert to truck. 5 ft bed without extension is kind of pointless as a bed, but huge as a trunk.
    - everdrive 10mo ago
      That's effectively what it is, but reverse. You buy it as a truck, and can buy seats & cap and turn it into an SUV. I see it as the closest thing you can get to a kei truck in the US without importing. Relatively cheap, good payload capacity, (better than a lot of trucks out there) effectively unable to tow, 5-foot bed, which is the same or larger than most mid-size trucks, and a tiny form factor. It's certainly a niche vehicle, but it looks exciting if it can fill you niche.

Nextgrid 10mo ago

There's no reason technology has to be user-hostile. You can still have an ECU and screens and everything. When it breaks the screen can be used to tell you exactly which sensor input is out of range. There's no reason parts need to be serialized and learning a new part can only be done once. You can build a modern vehicle that's still repairable.

Braxton1980 10mo ago
Modules need to be programmed for your vehicle specs and country because there are different laws and functions. For example rear taillights are different in Europe vs the US. Another is that higher trims of my car have a rear climate zone which has a different fan and actuators for air flow that the module needs to know exist.
- bri3d 10mo ago
  Sure, but the reasons programming requires proprietary software accessible only to the dealer via some kind of online access are depressing: laziness, greed, and crime. Making software that's usable by independent shops and consumers costs money, eliminates business lock-in to dealers, and boosts the gray/black market for broken or stolen parts, so the only reason manufacturers do it at all is when they are required to by regulation.
  - tmerc 10mo ago
    Calling bs. It takes more effort to implement proprietary protocols and codes in addition to the globally mandated obd2 protocol. You can extend obd2 with additional codes that could be read by a simple device. It costs money to run servers that check your license to read those proprietary codes. It's not laziness. The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this. Catalytic converter are stolen and resold all the time and swapping one doesn't require anything more complex than a socket set and a new gasket (assuming the thief didn't use a cutting tool, but then you just weld). Cats also get sold for scrap, so not sure what the software lock is gonna do for that. Hellcat engines get swapped all the time. ECUs get flashed by the black market regardless of the software locks. But what we see this proprietary software get used for is blocking the ability to swap brake pads and block heated seats. So it's not crime, but I'll agree on greed.

ambicapter 10mo ago

What do the sensors do? There's not much you can change in the catalytic converter so I assume it's just reading temperature? So I assume it's changing the fuel/air combustion ratio according to the cat's temperature?

immibis 10mo ago
Not a motorhead but IIRC a combustion with too little oxygen produces soot (pollution) and one with too much oxygen produces NOx pollution, with a sweet spot in the middle. The exhaust oxygen sensor allows the ECU to adjust the air/fuel mix to hit the minimum pollution spot, instead of estimating it. There might also be a catalyst temperature sensor or something. It's not a "whole bunch" of sensors, it's a few sensors and it's not some inscrutable magic, it's somethijg someone could replicate in open-source if they had equipment and time. We really need to get away from the mindset that proprietary stuff contains inscrutable magic. It's often worse quality than the open thing. However, it does have the right connections to be allowed to be put in a car that drives on the road.

Animats 10mo ago

Engine control alone can be self-contained. The Ford EEC IV of the 1980s had its program permanently etched into the Intel 8061 CPU, and was designed to last 30 years. It did. I finally sold off my 40 year old Ford Bronco, which was still running on the original engine and CPU.