6 ms·

When the Cato institute publishes something like this it's all over. These guys used to be considered incredibly conservative. For them to submit something so l

When the Cato institute publishes something like this it's all over. These guys used to be considered incredibly conservative. For them to submit something so level-headed and factual which goes counter to a Republican-led administration's politices indicates that the current government is being run not by folks engaging in good faith with our existing political institutions, but with radicals intent on twisting those institutions for their own agenda. Please remember that 23% of those with no conviction but pending charges should be considered innocent until proven guilty. If you get hit with a traffic stop, you shouldn't be lumped in with violent offenders. That's not how our justice system works.

rapsey 9mo ago
Obama deported way more than Trump does and no one complained. Why is that so? Or at least the complaints were not nearly on the level they are now. The actual anomaly is the Biden era.
- SoftTalker 9mo ago
  I'd like to know of any countries where a foreigner can be there without a valid visa/authorization and not be summarily deported if they are discovered.
  - riedel 9mo ago
    In Germany we have a thing called tolleration [0]. It actually covers quite a few people, because quite a few people seek asylum because legal immigrantion is often dysfunctional. The difference maybe is that it is difficult in Germany to be employed or take part in life without any formal registration. Deportation is often difficult because it needs to be safe and the country of origin has to cooperate. Because Germany only has EU borders, pushing people beyond its border is pretty pointless once they have settled (they typically return within a few days). But we also have over night deportations of families (children having grown up in Germany, people having jobs) with police raids in some cases, that leave people traumatized. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29
- languagehacker 9mo ago
  The issue isn't with the deportations -- it's actually with the change in tactic, and a lot of the extrajudicial behavior. Immigration is an absolute mess, and it's one we created ourselves with one bad policy after another. I'd recommend "Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here" to understand the 50+ year history of how American military and political involvement in Latin America created the instability which caused the refugee crisis -- and even created the cultural phenomena that resulted in the creation of MS13.
  - tartoran 9mo ago
    Change in tactics? This is as violent as it gets, the migrants being turned into slaves (paid $1 per day) while awaiting deportation, living in the worst possible conditions, possibly worse than jails.
- sillystuff 9mo ago
  It was common, on the left (i.e., not Liberals and not so-called Democrats), to call Obama, the "Deporter in Chief". Democratic voters always circle the wagons to protect the administration, regardless of the administration's actions, when one of their own is POTUS. The Republican voters do the exact same thing.
flatpepsi17 9mo ago
> If you get hit with a traffic stop, you shouldn't be lumped in with violent offenders. Yes, for whatever additional crimes they have committed. Being here illegally, that's what ICE is after (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), and they are fully in their prevue to send home people who are here against the law.
- languagehacker 9mo ago
  For sure, using civil power, since these are all administrative violations and aren't considered felonies.
  - flatpepsi17 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - languagehacker 9mo ago
      There are a lot of reasons why people are here illegally. Over 50 years we created an environment in Latin America that made it dangerous and unlivable for normal, law-abiding people. At the same time, we radically altered what we consider to be refugee status for immigration, and introduced rules that unfairly put requirements on other countries that refugees going over land need to apply for refugee status in every other country, whether or not there is infrastructure or jobs to support those refugees. This is all while companies reap the benefit of and build their pricing structures off of cheap, undocumented labor. We are profiting off of criminalizing people who are just trying to live their lives. You might count yourself fortunate not to be in this kind of a predicament, but it may benefit you to consider educating yourself on the subject and having a bit of empathy for others instead of relying on categorical absolutes.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - blactuary 9mo ago
      Nonsense. They are targeting people who are here legally. Cancelling their asylum applications while they are in the legal process and then arresting them at court, when they are following all of the rules. There are also millions of people who were brought here as babies or young children, through no fault of their own, and who have no ties whatsoever to the country where they were born. There should be a process to fix that, sending them to a faraway country they have never lived is disgusting. At every turn Republicans have fought any attempt to find sensible solutions because they want to wield "they are here illegally!" as a cudgel, and they have fooled people like you
SoftTalker 9mo ago
> should be considered innocent until proven guilty Agree if they are charged with a crime. But is being present in the country without a valid visa (or overstaying a visa, or similar) a criminal charge or an administrative violation? If I park my car where I'm not supposed to, it gets towed. There's no trial or presumption of innocence. The car is where it is.
- languagehacker 9mo ago
  There's a challenging burden of proof that starts even with what constitutes the ability to detain a person. US Citizens don't need to show anyone proof of citizenship due to a law that's been on the books since before World War II -- a law that was created after our legislators were disgusted by what was going on in Germany at the time. This means that for ICE to detain someone whose identity they don't already know 100%, there is a legal grey area where a citizen does not need to comply with their request. So how do they improve their accuracy? Sounds like racial profiling, right? That's because it is. Your analogy of an illegally parked car is spurious because where a car may park is pretty unequivocal. I hope that what I've described here helps you understand that this would be like someone choosing not to tow a Ford but opting to to tow a Kia even though they're parked against the same red curb.
  - SoftTalker 9mo ago
    Good point and I would agree the burden is (or should be) on the authorities to be sure they have properly identified any individuals as part of their process.
EnPissant 9mo ago
You are depicting this as some dramatic shift, but the Cato institute has always been anti-Trump.
lizardking 9mo ago
They are incredibly conservative and also very pro-migration. They represent the chamber of commerce wing of the republican party, and nothing about publication should be a surprise to anybody.

rapsey 9mo ago

Obama deported way more than Trump does and no one complained. Why is that so? Or at least the complaints were not nearly on the level they are now. The actual anomaly is the Biden era.

SoftTalker 9mo ago
I'd like to know of any countries where a foreigner can be there without a valid visa/authorization and not be summarily deported if they are discovered.
- riedel 9mo ago
  In Germany we have a thing called tolleration [0]. It actually covers quite a few people, because quite a few people seek asylum because legal immigrantion is often dysfunctional. The difference maybe is that it is difficult in Germany to be employed or take part in life without any formal registration. Deportation is often difficult because it needs to be safe and the country of origin has to cooperate. Because Germany only has EU borders, pushing people beyond its border is pretty pointless once they have settled (they typically return within a few days). But we also have over night deportations of families (children having grown up in Germany, people having jobs) with police raids in some cases, that leave people traumatized. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29
languagehacker 9mo ago
The issue isn't with the deportations -- it's actually with the change in tactic, and a lot of the extrajudicial behavior. Immigration is an absolute mess, and it's one we created ourselves with one bad policy after another. I'd recommend "Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here" to understand the 50+ year history of how American military and political involvement in Latin America created the instability which caused the refugee crisis -- and even created the cultural phenomena that resulted in the creation of MS13.
- tartoran 9mo ago
  Change in tactics? This is as violent as it gets, the migrants being turned into slaves (paid $1 per day) while awaiting deportation, living in the worst possible conditions, possibly worse than jails.
sillystuff 9mo ago
It was common, on the left (i.e., not Liberals and not so-called Democrats), to call Obama, the "Deporter in Chief". Democratic voters always circle the wagons to protect the administration, regardless of the administration's actions, when one of their own is POTUS. The Republican voters do the exact same thing.

flatpepsi17 9mo ago

> If you get hit with a traffic stop, you shouldn't be lumped in with violent offenders. Yes, for whatever additional crimes they have committed. Being here illegally, that's what ICE is after (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), and they are fully in their prevue to send home people who are here against the law.

languagehacker 9mo ago
For sure, using civil power, since these are all administrative violations and aren't considered felonies.
- flatpepsi17 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - languagehacker 9mo ago
    There are a lot of reasons why people are here illegally. Over 50 years we created an environment in Latin America that made it dangerous and unlivable for normal, law-abiding people. At the same time, we radically altered what we consider to be refugee status for immigration, and introduced rules that unfairly put requirements on other countries that refugees going over land need to apply for refugee status in every other country, whether or not there is infrastructure or jobs to support those refugees. This is all while companies reap the benefit of and build their pricing structures off of cheap, undocumented labor. We are profiting off of criminalizing people who are just trying to live their lives. You might count yourself fortunate not to be in this kind of a predicament, but it may benefit you to consider educating yourself on the subject and having a bit of empathy for others instead of relying on categorical absolutes.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - blactuary 9mo ago
    Nonsense. They are targeting people who are here legally. Cancelling their asylum applications while they are in the legal process and then arresting them at court, when they are following all of the rules. There are also millions of people who were brought here as babies or young children, through no fault of their own, and who have no ties whatsoever to the country where they were born. There should be a process to fix that, sending them to a faraway country they have never lived is disgusting. At every turn Republicans have fought any attempt to find sensible solutions because they want to wield "they are here illegally!" as a cudgel, and they have fooled people like you

SoftTalker 9mo ago

> should be considered innocent until proven guilty Agree if they are charged with a crime. But is being present in the country without a valid visa (or overstaying a visa, or similar) a criminal charge or an administrative violation? If I park my car where I'm not supposed to, it gets towed. There's no trial or presumption of innocence. The car is where it is.

languagehacker 9mo ago
There's a challenging burden of proof that starts even with what constitutes the ability to detain a person. US Citizens don't need to show anyone proof of citizenship due to a law that's been on the books since before World War II -- a law that was created after our legislators were disgusted by what was going on in Germany at the time. This means that for ICE to detain someone whose identity they don't already know 100%, there is a legal grey area where a citizen does not need to comply with their request. So how do they improve their accuracy? Sounds like racial profiling, right? That's because it is. Your analogy of an illegally parked car is spurious because where a car may park is pretty unequivocal. I hope that what I've described here helps you understand that this would be like someone choosing not to tow a Ford but opting to to tow a Kia even though they're parked against the same red curb.
- SoftTalker 9mo ago
  Good point and I would agree the burden is (or should be) on the authorities to be sure they have properly identified any individuals as part of their process.

EnPissant 9mo ago

You are depicting this as some dramatic shift, but the Cato institute has always been anti-Trump.

lizardking 9mo ago

They are incredibly conservative and also very pro-migration. They represent the chamber of commerce wing of the republican party, and nothing about publication should be a surprise to anybody.