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I sincerely hope the notion that avoiding your taxes is theft from the public at large returns in any semblance sooner rather than later. Nobody likes paying fo

I sincerely hope the notion that avoiding your taxes is theft from the public at large returns in any semblance sooner rather than later. Nobody likes paying for taxes but the notion that all of these billionaires became as such without utilizing any resources or regulations paid for by the public is completely upside down (to put it as gently as possible) These people are stealing from you. Jail them like the thieves they are or make them pay back into the system from which they so happily benefited.

silexia 9mo ago
[flagged]
- bigyabai 9mo ago
  Opinions like this are why the smart and wealthy people succeed in politics, while others are encouraged to lay asphalt if they want healthcare. Red tape and regulation has second-order effects, many of which keep you employed. By all means, you should leave America if you have any hope for a nation that eschews regulation in it's entirety. You should stay if you want to get paid to build roads, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization
  - silexia 9mo ago
    It sounds like you look down on those who build roads?
    - bigyabai 9mo ago
      No more than the free market does, friend.
- SunshineTheCat 9mo ago
  I've never really understood the knee-jerk hatred toward billionaires. The reality is that while I'm sure some fraud/corruption exists, for the most part, they cannot steal money from you. They have to make something so good, a person chooses to part with their money to acquire it. The government on the other hand, can just tax you (often without cause or justification) and offer nothing in return for what they took by force. Yet you'll find many people decrying billionaires as the great evil while silent on governments who are in many ways, far far worse.
  - saulpw 9mo ago
    It's more about the concentrated power that billionaires (shouldn't) have. I didn't care that Elon Musk had $100b+ until he started using it to buy social media platforms and influence national politics.
    - anamax 9mo ago
      Of course, you were concerned about how the folks who previously ran Twitter used it to influence national politics, right? You're concerned about such influence by the folks who run each of the four major networks, the folks who run the major newspapers, etc.
    - xhkkffbf 9mo ago
      What is this concentrated power you speak about? In many areas, they have exactly the same power as everyone else. They get only one vote each election day. They have to queue up at the Post Office, grocery store, etc just like everyone else. Now you're right that they have more money and they can spend it. Some things like hiring a lawyer to sue someone are too expensive for an average person but accessible to billionaires. Rich people can do things with taxes loopholes that aren't practical for the average schmoe. It is true that they often have power at their company and sometimes they use it overtly or covertly. But even this can be limited because they have to work with partners and other shareholders. The CEO of a big publicly traded company can't just break the rules because they're on a power trip.
      - saulpw 9mo ago
        > They have to queue up at the Post Office, grocery store, etc just like everyone else Don't be obtuse. The people we're talking about don't go to the Post office, or the grocery store, and they certainly don't queue up. They don't even queue up at the airport, they have private planes, private security, private everything. And "they only get one vote each election day". Voting is the least amount of political influence that a person can have.
        9mo ago
- LunaSea 9mo ago
  Might want to check from whom SpaceX and Palantir get their contracts from.
  - credit_guy 9mo ago
    And if SpaceX was not there, who would the government turn to? Fun fact: the US is way ahead of China in space launches, but if you remove SpaceX, then China is way ahead of the US.
    - LunaSea 9mo ago
      > And if SpaceX was not there, who would the government turn to? NASA, like it always has.
- dang 9mo ago
  Could you please stop using HN primarily for political and ideological battle? Your account has been doing this a ton lately, and it's a line at which we ban accounts. I don't want to ban you but we need you to use the site as intended. A certain percentage of political posts is ok but it should be nowhere near 50, let alone 90. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... p.s. The best and most HN-good part of your comment here was "I build roads".
  - silexia 9mo ago
    Ok, fair point on too much politics. I will cut it back to well under 50%. I hope you are responding similarly to those of opposing views as well?
anamax 9mo ago
> billionaires became as such without utilizing any resources or regulations paid for by the public Strawman. No one is claiming "without utilizing". However, they are part of the public that paid. Moreover, if I let you use my pen to take a note, I'm not entitled to all of the gain that you get from taking said note.
- lickmygiggle 9mo ago
  If I make a dollar and you make 10 selling apples on a road paid for by the public why shouldn’t you be held any more responsible for the upkeep of that road?
- throwawayqqq11 9mo ago
  > Strawman > No one is claiming ... > I'm not entitled to all of the gain ... You put up two more of them to counter one.
SunshineTheCat 9mo ago
The notion that someone keeping what they earn is "theft" while having something forcibly taken from them via taxation isn't, is wild. I agree everyone should pay taxes, including billionaires, but this is like saying if my neighbor doesn't give me his couch, he's stealing from me. It's just logically (and morally) wrong.
- Guvante 9mo ago
  The government gets a percentage of your income, this is the agreement that everyone makes. For simplicity we only do this when a sale of an asset is made. Claiming that adjusting this timing is theft is ridiculous, Larry Page has a debt that hasn't come due for his profits is all. Adjusting the timing on the payments of that debt isn't theft. Per capita the rich get the best deal BTW as billionaires don't exist by a few orders of magnitude without the benefits of society. Sure they pay more taxes but they also benefit massively in comparison to most people in absolute terms of benefit.
  - adastra22 9mo ago
    This proposed tax is an EXTRA tax on billionaires only. The “all taxation is theft” position is pretty indefensible in modern society, but this explicit “No, fuck you in particular!” tax is ALSO indefensible.
    - Guvante 9mo ago
      Why? We consistently use progressive tax policies worldwide.
      - adastra22 9mo ago
        Wealth taxes are extremely uncommon worldwide.
        Guvante 9mo ago
        Billionaires have been too and the tax code is one the slowest things to adapt. In tax code sense I am not even sure the effects of buy, borrow, and die have even been settled. EDIT: can't respond but "pay no taxes but at least your kids do" isn't exactly a fix

silexia 9mo ago

[flagged]

bigyabai 9mo ago
Opinions like this are why the smart and wealthy people succeed in politics, while others are encouraged to lay asphalt if they want healthcare. Red tape and regulation has second-order effects, many of which keep you employed. By all means, you should leave America if you have any hope for a nation that eschews regulation in it's entirety. You should stay if you want to get paid to build roads, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization
- silexia 9mo ago
  It sounds like you look down on those who build roads?
  - bigyabai 9mo ago
    No more than the free market does, friend.
SunshineTheCat 9mo ago
I've never really understood the knee-jerk hatred toward billionaires. The reality is that while I'm sure some fraud/corruption exists, for the most part, they cannot steal money from you. They have to make something so good, a person chooses to part with their money to acquire it. The government on the other hand, can just tax you (often without cause or justification) and offer nothing in return for what they took by force. Yet you'll find many people decrying billionaires as the great evil while silent on governments who are in many ways, far far worse.
- saulpw 9mo ago
  It's more about the concentrated power that billionaires (shouldn't) have. I didn't care that Elon Musk had $100b+ until he started using it to buy social media platforms and influence national politics.
  - anamax 9mo ago
    Of course, you were concerned about how the folks who previously ran Twitter used it to influence national politics, right? You're concerned about such influence by the folks who run each of the four major networks, the folks who run the major newspapers, etc.
  - xhkkffbf 9mo ago
    What is this concentrated power you speak about? In many areas, they have exactly the same power as everyone else. They get only one vote each election day. They have to queue up at the Post Office, grocery store, etc just like everyone else. Now you're right that they have more money and they can spend it. Some things like hiring a lawyer to sue someone are too expensive for an average person but accessible to billionaires. Rich people can do things with taxes loopholes that aren't practical for the average schmoe. It is true that they often have power at their company and sometimes they use it overtly or covertly. But even this can be limited because they have to work with partners and other shareholders. The CEO of a big publicly traded company can't just break the rules because they're on a power trip.
    - saulpw 9mo ago
      > They have to queue up at the Post Office, grocery store, etc just like everyone else Don't be obtuse. The people we're talking about don't go to the Post office, or the grocery store, and they certainly don't queue up. They don't even queue up at the airport, they have private planes, private security, private everything. And "they only get one vote each election day". Voting is the least amount of political influence that a person can have.
      - 9mo ago
LunaSea 9mo ago
Might want to check from whom SpaceX and Palantir get their contracts from.
- credit_guy 9mo ago
  And if SpaceX was not there, who would the government turn to? Fun fact: the US is way ahead of China in space launches, but if you remove SpaceX, then China is way ahead of the US.
  - LunaSea 9mo ago
    > And if SpaceX was not there, who would the government turn to? NASA, like it always has.
dang 9mo ago
Could you please stop using HN primarily for political and ideological battle? Your account has been doing this a ton lately, and it's a line at which we ban accounts. I don't want to ban you but we need you to use the site as intended. A certain percentage of political posts is ok but it should be nowhere near 50, let alone 90. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... p.s. The best and most HN-good part of your comment here was "I build roads".
- silexia 9mo ago
  Ok, fair point on too much politics. I will cut it back to well under 50%. I hope you are responding similarly to those of opposing views as well?

anamax 9mo ago

> billionaires became as such without utilizing any resources or regulations paid for by the public Strawman. No one is claiming "without utilizing". However, they are part of the public that paid. Moreover, if I let you use my pen to take a note, I'm not entitled to all of the gain that you get from taking said note.

lickmygiggle 9mo ago
If I make a dollar and you make 10 selling apples on a road paid for by the public why shouldn’t you be held any more responsible for the upkeep of that road?
throwawayqqq11 9mo ago
> Strawman > No one is claiming ... > I'm not entitled to all of the gain ... You put up two more of them to counter one.

SunshineTheCat 9mo ago

The notion that someone keeping what they earn is "theft" while having something forcibly taken from them via taxation isn't, is wild. I agree everyone should pay taxes, including billionaires, but this is like saying if my neighbor doesn't give me his couch, he's stealing from me. It's just logically (and morally) wrong.

Guvante 9mo ago
The government gets a percentage of your income, this is the agreement that everyone makes. For simplicity we only do this when a sale of an asset is made. Claiming that adjusting this timing is theft is ridiculous, Larry Page has a debt that hasn't come due for his profits is all. Adjusting the timing on the payments of that debt isn't theft. Per capita the rich get the best deal BTW as billionaires don't exist by a few orders of magnitude without the benefits of society. Sure they pay more taxes but they also benefit massively in comparison to most people in absolute terms of benefit.
- adastra22 9mo ago
  This proposed tax is an EXTRA tax on billionaires only. The “all taxation is theft” position is pretty indefensible in modern society, but this explicit “No, fuck you in particular!” tax is ALSO indefensible.
  - Guvante 9mo ago
    Why? We consistently use progressive tax policies worldwide.
    - adastra22 9mo ago
      Wealth taxes are extremely uncommon worldwide.
      - Guvante 9mo ago
        Billionaires have been too and the tax code is one the slowest things to adapt. In tax code sense I am not even sure the effects of buy, borrow, and die have even been settled. EDIT: can't respond but "pay no taxes but at least your kids do" isn't exactly a fix