5 ms·

It seems weird to run a closed-source browser on an open-source operating system when so many open alternatives exist—I certainly wouldn’t do it, and I’m a Kagi

by hellcow 9mo ago

It seems weird to run a closed-source browser on an open-source operating system when so many open alternatives exist—I certainly wouldn’t do it, and I’m a Kagi customer. Does Kagi plan to open-source Orion on Linux?

phoronixrly 9mo ago
Even if it was open-source, I already have more than enough webkits on my Linux, I don't need another one.
- microtonal 9mo ago
  Aren't most browsers Blinks? (Yes, I know that Blink was forked from WebKit and WebKit was forked from KHTML.)
  - mghackerlady 9mo ago
    Yeah. The only webkit browser on linux aside from orion is GNOMEs browser (which frankly kinda sucks, which is why I want orion open-sourced so that GNOME can take its work on webextentions when they become supported)
BoredPositron 9mo ago
Feels weird in what way?
skylurk 9mo ago
I also would like to try it, but won't touch it until it is open source.
freedomben 9mo ago
I hope freediver will shed some light on the open source plans, because that's a deal breaker for me too. I'm a long time paying customer and huge proponent (even evangelist) of Kagi, but a closed source browser is just too many steps backwards for me no matter who makes it. I get (though wouldn't necessarily agree with) keeping it closed while it's still in the works, but would like to know if the plan is to open source in the future or not.
- freediver 9mo ago
  Wish granted!
  - freedomben 9mo ago
    Thank you! I'm obviously just one person, but I deeply appreciate your willingness to engage on HN, and your transparency and honesty about things (not just today, but also in the past). Makes me feel even better about being a paid Kagi subscriber.
EbNar 9mo ago
Just curious, but is this really a big deal? As a customer, you already trust Kagi enough to feed them your entire search history, so I guess you don't think they're bad actors. Thus, why you find problematic the (momentary?) "unopeness" of the browser? I'd gladly try it (I'm on Arch), even just out of curiosity (unlikely to make it my main, though). Jeez, downvoted for asking about context? People, calm down.
- JohnFen 9mo ago
  Requiring it to be open source is not just about trusting the publisher. There are a bunch of other possible reasons, including wanting to support open source as a counterbalance to proprietary software. For me, it's a big deal (although not a dealbreaker) for that reason. If I have the option of two different pieces of software, one being open source and the other proprietary, I'll choose the open source one every time unless there's something really exceptional about the proprietary one. But that's very rare. I was just trying to think of any proprietary software I use outside of work (where I don't have a choice) or games. There must be at least one, but I can't think of what it is.
  - EbNar 9mo ago
    Understood. Obviously, all things being equal, I prefer (F)OSS too. Anyway, I'll probably play a bit with Orion, if possible.
  - freediver 9mo ago
    Side thought: nobody's ever asked us to open source Kagi Search. Curious why the expectation differs.
    - mistercheph 9mo ago
      Code you run on your machine outside of a browser sandbox vs content served by an HTTP endpoint to your machine.
    - fwip 9mo ago
      Kagi Search runs on your computers, Orion runs on ours.
WD-42 9mo ago
Especially because WebKit’s lineage goes all the way back to KHTML. It’s nice to see KHTML come home to Linux but it does need to be open source.
- forgotpwd16 9mo ago
  Come home? It never left it. Konqueror, the software where it all started, still is a core KDE app. WebKitGTK, arguably the most portable WebKit distribution and what Orion itself uses, has always been Linux-first.
  - WD-42 9mo ago
    I can’t speak to whatever konqueror uses these days but webkitgtk is notoriously behind and difficult to work with. You can read posts from the Tauri devs questioning their entire approach on Linux due to it. I really hope Kagi contributes back upstream to improve the situation, it’s needed. Edit: looks like konqueror uses qt web engine which is chromium. The irony of the KDE browser abandoning WebKit while the GNOME browser still tries to use it is too much.
pixxel 9mo ago
[dead]
freediver 9mo ago
Kagi founder here. Orion isn't open source yet primarily because we're a 5-person team that spent 6+ years building this and created significant IP doing so, and we're not in a position to defend our work against a well-funded company using it as a base (we care very much about the business model of the browser surviving). Restrictive licenses help in theory but enforcing them against a company with a larger legal budget doesn't. We also see limited upside from community contributions - the number of people who can meaningfully work on a WebKit browser is small (from our experience hiring), and most of them already work at Apple or Kagi. Meanwhile, managing an open source codebase of this size would add real strain to our small team. The plan is however to open source when Orion is self-sufficient (business model of Orion is you are the customer and can pay for it - like we used to pay for browsers 20 years ago before advertisers started paying for our browsing), meaning it can sustain its own development independent of Kagi Search. I want to take the opportunity to thank all people who supported the Orion browser vision [1]. We're not there yet but recent 1.0 launch and expanding to Linux are steps in that direction. And on Jan 1st this year we began development of Orion for Windows (HN exclusive yay!). I understand this is unsatisfying to people who want source access now. It's a tradeoff we've made deliberately, not something we're hiding behind. [1] https://kagi.com/stats?sub_stats=orion https://kagi.com/stats?sub_stats=orion
- roody15 9mo ago
  Thanks for responding. Orion on iOS with extensions has been outstanding.. looking forward to linux version.
  - p_j_w 9mo ago
    Which extensions do you use? I was never able to get them to work. d reddit redirect, for example, never once redirected a reddit link to old reddit.
    - roody15 9mo ago
      The big one being ublock origin
Terretta 9mo ago
It seems weird to worry more about that than about the Chromium hegemony to where Chromium is becoming the only way to move money online.
- skybrian 9mo ago
  What do you mean by "move money?" Do banks not support Firefox or Safari?
AlienRobot 9mo ago
In my opinion open sourcing something is a privilege, not a duty.
EasyMark 9mo ago
Why does it seem weird? I run a lot of proprietary software on linux. Actually made a career of it. I also run a lot of open source whenever I can, but I'm pragmatic about the whole affair. I think most users are like that.
WhyNotHugo 9mo ago
Being closed-source isn't just an ideological issue, it bring about a lot of practical issues. E..g.: distributions aren't going to package it, so users need to download the tarball and install it manually. They'll also need to manually update it (unless they're including some dedicated service?). Then, integration with the OS will be weird. If you're distributing binaries, you can't dynamically link system dependencies (they are either bundled or statically linked). Any distribution-specific patches and fixes will be missing. AFAIK the default path for the CA bundle varies per distribution; I'm not even sure how you'd handle that kind of thing. I'm sure there's hundreds of subtle little details like that one. The audience ends up being Linux users, who are fine with proprietary software, have time and patience for manually configuring and maintaining a browser installation, and are also fine with an absence of proper OS integration. I think Steam is the only popular proprietary software on Linux, and they basically ship an entire userspace runtime, and almost don't integrate with the OS at all.

by hellcow 9mo ago

phoronixrly 9mo ago

Even if it was open-source, I already have more than enough webkits on my Linux, I don't need another one.

microtonal 9mo ago
Aren't most browsers Blinks? (Yes, I know that Blink was forked from WebKit and WebKit was forked from KHTML.)
- mghackerlady 9mo ago
  Yeah. The only webkit browser on linux aside from orion is GNOMEs browser (which frankly kinda sucks, which is why I want orion open-sourced so that GNOME can take its work on webextentions when they become supported)

BoredPositron 9mo ago

Feels weird in what way?

skylurk 9mo ago

I also would like to try it, but won't touch it until it is open source.

freedomben 9mo ago

I hope freediver will shed some light on the open source plans, because that's a deal breaker for me too. I'm a long time paying customer and huge proponent (even evangelist) of Kagi, but a closed source browser is just too many steps backwards for me no matter who makes it. I get (though wouldn't necessarily agree with) keeping it closed while it's still in the works, but would like to know if the plan is to open source in the future or not.

freediver 9mo ago
Wish granted!
- freedomben 9mo ago
  Thank you! I'm obviously just one person, but I deeply appreciate your willingness to engage on HN, and your transparency and honesty about things (not just today, but also in the past). Makes me feel even better about being a paid Kagi subscriber.

EbNar 9mo ago

Just curious, but is this really a big deal? As a customer, you already trust Kagi enough to feed them your entire search history, so I guess you don't think they're bad actors. Thus, why you find problematic the (momentary?) "unopeness" of the browser? I'd gladly try it (I'm on Arch), even just out of curiosity (unlikely to make it my main, though). Jeez, downvoted for asking about context? People, calm down.

JohnFen 9mo ago
Requiring it to be open source is not just about trusting the publisher. There are a bunch of other possible reasons, including wanting to support open source as a counterbalance to proprietary software. For me, it's a big deal (although not a dealbreaker) for that reason. If I have the option of two different pieces of software, one being open source and the other proprietary, I'll choose the open source one every time unless there's something really exceptional about the proprietary one. But that's very rare. I was just trying to think of any proprietary software I use outside of work (where I don't have a choice) or games. There must be at least one, but I can't think of what it is.
- EbNar 9mo ago
  Understood. Obviously, all things being equal, I prefer (F)OSS too. Anyway, I'll probably play a bit with Orion, if possible.
- freediver 9mo ago
  Side thought: nobody's ever asked us to open source Kagi Search. Curious why the expectation differs.
  - mistercheph 9mo ago
    Code you run on your machine outside of a browser sandbox vs content served by an HTTP endpoint to your machine.
  - fwip 9mo ago
    Kagi Search runs on your computers, Orion runs on ours.

WD-42 9mo ago

Especially because WebKit’s lineage goes all the way back to KHTML. It’s nice to see KHTML come home to Linux but it does need to be open source.

forgotpwd16 9mo ago
Come home? It never left it. Konqueror, the software where it all started, still is a core KDE app. WebKitGTK, arguably the most portable WebKit distribution and what Orion itself uses, has always been Linux-first.
- WD-42 9mo ago
  I can’t speak to whatever konqueror uses these days but webkitgtk is notoriously behind and difficult to work with. You can read posts from the Tauri devs questioning their entire approach on Linux due to it. I really hope Kagi contributes back upstream to improve the situation, it’s needed. Edit: looks like konqueror uses qt web engine which is chromium. The irony of the KDE browser abandoning WebKit while the GNOME browser still tries to use it is too much.

pixxel 9mo ago

[dead]

freediver 9mo ago

Kagi founder here. Orion isn't open source yet primarily because we're a 5-person team that spent 6+ years building this and created significant IP doing so, and we're not in a position to defend our work against a well-funded company using it as a base (we care very much about the business model of the browser surviving). Restrictive licenses help in theory but enforcing them against a company with a larger legal budget doesn't. We also see limited upside from community contributions - the number of people who can meaningfully work on a WebKit browser is small (from our experience hiring), and most of them already work at Apple or Kagi. Meanwhile, managing an open source codebase of this size would add real strain to our small team. The plan is however to open source when Orion is self-sufficient (business model of Orion is you are the customer and can pay for it - like we used to pay for browsers 20 years ago before advertisers started paying for our browsing), meaning it can sustain its own development independent of Kagi Search. I want to take the opportunity to thank all people who supported the Orion browser vision [1]. We're not there yet but recent 1.0 launch and expanding to Linux are steps in that direction. And on Jan 1st this year we began development of Orion for Windows (HN exclusive yay!). I understand this is unsatisfying to people who want source access now. It's a tradeoff we've made deliberately, not something we're hiding behind. [1] https://kagi.com/stats?sub_stats=orion https://kagi.com/stats?sub_stats=orion

roody15 9mo ago
Thanks for responding. Orion on iOS with extensions has been outstanding.. looking forward to linux version.
- p_j_w 9mo ago
  Which extensions do you use? I was never able to get them to work. d reddit redirect, for example, never once redirected a reddit link to old reddit.
  - roody15 9mo ago
    The big one being ublock origin

Terretta 9mo ago

It seems weird to worry more about that than about the Chromium hegemony to where Chromium is becoming the only way to move money online.

skybrian 9mo ago
What do you mean by "move money?" Do banks not support Firefox or Safari?

AlienRobot 9mo ago

In my opinion open sourcing something is a privilege, not a duty.

EasyMark 9mo ago

Why does it seem weird? I run a lot of proprietary software on linux. Actually made a career of it. I also run a lot of open source whenever I can, but I'm pragmatic about the whole affair. I think most users are like that.

WhyNotHugo 9mo ago

Being closed-source isn't just an ideological issue, it bring about a lot of practical issues. E..g.: distributions aren't going to package it, so users need to download the tarball and install it manually. They'll also need to manually update it (unless they're including some dedicated service?). Then, integration with the OS will be weird. If you're distributing binaries, you can't dynamically link system dependencies (they are either bundled or statically linked). Any distribution-specific patches and fixes will be missing. AFAIK the default path for the CA bundle varies per distribution; I'm not even sure how you'd handle that kind of thing. I'm sure there's hundreds of subtle little details like that one. The audience ends up being Linux users, who are fine with proprietary software, have time and patience for manually configuring and maintaining a browser installation, and are also fine with an absence of proper OS integration. I think Steam is the only popular proprietary software on Linux, and they basically ship an entire userspace runtime, and almost don't integrate with the OS at all.